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Announcing the Female Founders Conference (March 1)

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Re: Announcing the Female Founders Conference (March 1)

#281
post #185
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just looked at the former, and it starts with an example of zero-sum thinking -- namely, that someone's disadvantage is necessarily a source of an advantage for others. Other social justice concepts are apparently also derived from this logical fallacy. I love feminism btw; it has been, and still is, a truly progressive movement, despite it being currently infested with SJW's. The fundamental difference, which result…

"are we pulling women up (the conference in question being a great example of that), or are we dragging everyone else down" "everyone else" happens to be men, and plenty of self-identified feminists believe that men need to have power and privilege taken from them, because no one should have the kind of power we do, by nature of the gender caste system. I recommend the first essay, first. "feminism" isn't a monolithi…

That's a good point; the way I see it, the general social justice movement is largely a movement against hierarchy, and for valuing all people equally. It is naturally allied with feminism in the sense that both see the elimination of the gender gap as desirable.

I personally consider the SJ concepts destructive and anti-progressive: hierarchy can often be efficient, there is nothing fundamentally immoral about it, and since people's contributions to society are not equal, treating them equally is neither efficient nor just -- similarly to how treating them unequally based on superficial criteria such as gender is inefficient and unfair as well. But, we probably have a philosophical disagreement on this, which is really fine -- I wish the anti-efficiency and anti-growth people would stop calling themselves "progressives" though, but that's quite another topic...

I would have absolutely no problem with the feminism/SJ alliance, except for the empirical observation that when you hear someone proclaiming themselves as a feminist, most of the time it's a SJW in disguise, and then we have an unfortunate situation when a valid position is supported by entirely unacceptable arguments... Which is pretty much the reason I felt I had to comment on this, as I don't want people to consider the two concepts as identical.

Re: Announcing the Female Founders Conference (March 1)

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>To me saying "some men" is like giving the "good men" a cookie To me, saying "some men" is being precise with language and not falling into generalization. "Men", in common usage, refers to individuals that are male, not a "political class".

English does not discriminate well between the universal quantification (∀; all men are) and existential quantification (∃; some men are) when quantification is indefinite (men are). It's often unambiguous; saying "men are well-represented in the boardrooms of US companies" would not be taken as implying that a number of men close to 165 million (or 3.5 billion) crammed into American boardrooms. Where it's not, it's…

That's a very good breakdown of usage of the word and I'd forgotten about the indefinite usage. In this particular usage, it included the word "always" ("men always"). If someone states "men always love sports" then I'd interpret that to be equivalent in meaning to "all men love sports".

Re: Announcing the Female Founders Conference (March 1)

#283
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Words have multiple meanings. Yes "to discriminate" does mean to treat one thing differently than another, to discern among various alternatives. That's not the context discrimination is being used in here. In that sense, having separate bathrooms is also "gender discrimination". Are you against that as well? In this context discrimination refers to a systemic tendency to undervalue a particular class of people for r…

>That's not the context discrimination is being used in here. In that sense, having separate bathrooms is also "gender discrimination". Are you against that as well? Yes. And gender separated sports leagues. I believe people shouldn't be defined by their gender, which is a problematic term in the first place.

Indeed, it just creates and reenforces the dichotomy.

Re: Announcing the Female Founders Conference (March 1)

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, and legitimate sources. I don't disagree that there's a problem here, but there are far too many nuances to pick apart, so I'll go about this more obliquely. First: the way you approached this engagement started with a claim that most feminism has a "tenuous grasp on reality". Claiming that the reasonable feminists are a tiny minority is a good way to suggest that every claim the person you're responding…

1. I'm kind of unclear on why you quoted me the way you did. I didn't actually say that most feminism has a tenuous grasp on reality, I said exactly what you later quoted me as saying ("often (not always!)"). Yeah, it introduces antagonism, but it isn't, in my view, unwarranted. It's hard to have an argument without some antagonism. 2. If you really want to take that path, then yes, there's systemic something at play…

> Is it marginalization? That isn't a given. You take it as a given.

Fair enough. That's legitimate.

Of course, then you proceed to list exactly one statistic that isn't marginalization and then throw down three that are.

There is a weak bias that teachers should be women. I expected the breakdown to be more pronounced by state, but I couldn't find numbers within a minute. I did find this: http://www.edweek.org/media/pot2011final-blog.pdf : which has an unsubtle chart on page 12 showing that the female percentage of teachers has been going up over the last 30 years. You're going to tell me that that means it's men who are marginalized, but guess what? Teachers are a marginalized group to begin with. (Also, I see 83% on that page, not 76%.)

20% sounds like the effects of marginalization to me, especially when SCOTUS does much better. Fun fact: you basically never hear about misogyny from a SCOTUS decision. Ratio there? About one-to-one.

Crime is multi-faceted, and I'll try to cover it succinctly. There are two major aspects. One: criminals are the ones who actually did something charge-worthy. Why does this tend to be men? Two: profiling happens, and people expect men to be a criminal and women to be victims. Thus arrests predominantly happen to men. So yes, there's a marginalization of women going on here. Of course, this is overshadowed by the fact that far too many people are being arrested in the first place, and far too many people arrested are conveniently of minority races. Part 1 isn't addressed by the police; it's addressed by fixing sexism in society itself, which would result in a more balanced ratio of inmates without touching the justice system at all.

Also, I do hope that science figures out how to get men pregnant. That's a thing being worked on. It's not really the more important thing ever, though.

> Once again, my gripe is mainly with the type of feminism I originally, way back responded to. The kind that says we can't have men's groups because "every other group is a men's group".

Then why are we even discussing anything? I could dig out an explanation of why your semantics are wrong, but I think we've established that the exclusionary policy you're objecting to isn't what was actually being called out. Are you just arguing for the sake of argument?

> If the men's rights poster implies that women are sluts, then the City's poster implies that men are rapists.

No, it doesn't. I've seen lots of women drink who I haven't subsequently fucked. This is because drinking is not a sexual act. Why do I have to explain this?

Yes, there is a problematic fuzziness in the line of women who decide to report a rape because they regretted a one-night stand after the fact. The appropriate response isn't to say, "Just because you call it rape doesn't make it rape." The appropriate response is to get women the emotional education they need to stop doing that, whether it means fewer one-night stands or more recognition of why they're regretting the previous night's decision.

And even if you were right, that women are taking advantage of a compliant legal system in order to abuse men. Does that actually make it okay to advocate rape in return? Sure, it's understandable. I can sympathize with the desire to lash out and be self-defeating. But "she did it first" is not exactly the kind of moral foundation I hope people above the age of 10 are using.

> Nobody wants to think about that one logically, though. People just want to react.

And that's exactly how I feel about the way you treat it. You don't "think about that one logically". You just "react", because men have a plight and you have to advocate for it.

> I don't really understand what kind of warning bells "men need advocates too" claims would set off, and forgive me if after reading your posts I don't see what in your posts should have illuminated that for me. I still fervently believe that men do need advocates

Of course they do. It's just that most of the people who claim this, in my experience, have been people who don't need advocates and are just relishing another opportunity to slam the door in the face of women. Women need advocates too, and groups who say otherwise are, frankly, an enemy to justice as far as I'm concerned.

Re: Announcing the Female Founders Conference (March 1)

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. I'm kind of unclear on why you quoted me the way you did. I didn't actually say that most feminism has a tenuous grasp on reality, I said exactly what you later quoted me as saying ("often (not always!)"). Yeah, it introduces antagonism, but it isn't, in my view, unwarranted. It's hard to have an argument without some antagonism. 2. If you really want to take that path, then yes, there's systemic something at play…

> Is it marginalization? That isn't a given. You take it as a given. Fair enough. That's legitimate. Of course, then you proceed to list exactly one statistic that isn't marginalization and then throw down three that are . There is a weak bias that teachers should be women. I expected the breakdown to be more pronounced by state, but I couldn't find numbers within a minute. I did find this: http://www.edweek.org/medi…

>One: criminals are the ones who actually did something charge-worthy. Why does this tend to be men?

Are all charge-worthy laws just? No. Are they going to let all the prisoners free en masse who committed MJ-related drug crimes now that it's basically legal? Is the drug war really working, or just creating more casualties than necessary?

Say a kid is born into a gang family. The gang's existence is only possible because drugs are illegal in the US. The kid grows up around violence and drugs, no 'mainstream-style' support from the parents so there's no school or work involved, then ends up in the gang himself. Eventually he goes down on charges. Was his demise systemic? Or is he "just a bad guy" who did something charge-worthy?

>No, it doesn't. I've seen lots of women drink who I haven't subsequently fucked. This is because drinking is not a sexual act. Why do I have to explain this?

That's the point.

The fact that posters exist telling you not to get rapey on a woman just because they're drinking is why we have to explain this. Drinking is not a sexual act, why are the posters making it one? Not all men are rapists, why are these posters presuming all men are?

>The appropriate response isn't to say, "Just because you call it rape doesn't make it rape."

I don't know whether or not it's appropriate, but it logically holds. As does "just because you regret a one-night stand doesn't mean it's not consensual". It's implying a default suspicion of women just as the other posters imply a default suspicion of men. If people don't like the tactic, maybe they shouldn't use it. Using it in the service of feminism rather than some other ideology doesn't magically make it okay.

>And even if you were right, that women are taking advantage of a compliant legal system in order to abuse men. Does that actually make it okay to advocate rape in return?

Huh? Who's advocating rape? Not me, and certainly not those posters...

>And that's exactly how I feel about the way you treat it

Fair enough, I can't tell you how to feel. But I've made my share of logical arguments in this thread, and they'll stand on their own.

>It's just that most of the people who claim this, in my experience, have been people who don't need advocates and are just relishing another opportunity to slam the door in the face of women

There's a contingent of women-haters out there for sure, just as there's a contingent of man-haters too. [1] But it's a mistake to assume that just because one advocates for a group, that person auto-hates The Other Group. In fact, that's kinda the same mistake you accuse me of making, isn't it? Thinking that because my experience with feminism has been way more confrontational and politically-charged than the majority of other people's, that my judgment of feminism as a whole is skewed?

[1] - Robin Morgan, influential writer, editor, general cultural producer. "I feel that "man-hating" is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." -- http://books.google.ca/books?id=PatzOnRJCf4C&pg=PA202#v=onep...

Re: Announcing the Female Founders Conference (March 1)

#286
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about the person to whom you are replying, but in my opinion, in this case, two wrongs make a right, if you can call hosting a conference aimed at an under-represented group a "wrong". Sure, in a perfect world, we wouldn't want or need such conferences, but in this world, we should strive for the best equality we can manage and not limit ourselves by blind idealism. If in the future, women and men are eq…

What makes you think that 50:50 representation in given field is "the correct" one?

Nothing, and I'm not sure what the "correct" representation would be. However, I do not believe the representation we have now indicates a field with an equal barrier for entry for a man and a woman who have the same skill set, motivation, and intelligence.

Re: Announcing the Female Founders Conference (March 1)

#287

How sexist.... I am offended. When was the Male Founders Conference again???

Looking forward to going once you organize it and pay for it. Make sure to post your amazing speaker lineup on HN, it's pretty hard to get people to go to conferences that are predominantly attended by men.

So if next year Black Hat was men only (which it pretty much already is), no one would show up? LOL

Re: Announcing the Female Founders Conference (March 1)

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess that's true if you consider being for legalized sex work the exact same as being against legalized sex work. She's pretty explicitly pro legalized sex work. Let me quote the relevant part again: "She views prostitution as violence against women and favors laws like those in Sweden, where the sale of sexual services is legal" If you interpret viewing prostitution as violence the same as viewing sex between con…

>I guess that's true if you consider being for legalized sex work the exact same as being against legalized sex work Why are you being so blatantly dishonest? She is not for legalized sex work, she is for making purchasing sex a crime. That is not legalizing sex work, it is simply not making the prostitutes side criminal. >"She views prostitution as violence against women and favors laws like those in Sweden, where t…

You really want to present this law as a matter of women wanting an "out"? You have no idea why anyone is advocating for this.

I have no problem talking "men's issues." I have a problem, though, talking about men's issues with a person who hasn't even investigated the very foundation of what is happening in a situation before jumping to "me, me, me."

Women are regularly-- constantly-- kidnapped and sexually/emotionally/physically abused into sex work. In the US-- not just in third world countries. They make no profit. They win the prize of being beaten, but not to death. Then, when what they're doing is discovered, they go to jail. Instead of the kidnapper. Which they can't fight because the person who has actually profited from what they've done would literally kill them and their entire family if they did.

That is why anyone is advocating that buying-- not selling-- sex be illegal. Because there are far more men benefiting from female prostitution than females benefiting from it. And the organizations that try to rescue women are made helpless by current legislation.

The solution presented is imperfect, of course, because 100% of women do not fall into this category. It's just that the women in this situation have no way of identifying as such without someone going after the people they love.

On the other hand, you have men who are down in the dumps, who seek a prostitute to feel better. There may be legitimate mental health issues there, which is deeply unfortunate.

We could make their side "legal" as well. But would that make the situation better or worse? It seems to me that jailing a man who purchases sex is the least of two "evils." Which is the best any legislation can do, really.

If you want someone to be mad at, please, be mad at the pimps. Not women-- as a big, faceless entity, no less.

Also try to familiarize yourself with an issue before jumping to conclusions like this. If something sounds completely absurd, chances are you haven't heard both sides.

Re: Announcing the Female Founders Conference (March 1)

#289
post #182
post #30

I'm assuming some HNers are soon to arrive saying things like "why does it matter that a founder is a female?", "why make an excluding event? isn't it sexism all the same", "imagine if someone make a 'male founders conference'?" I would like to ask you to think for a moment, before raising this concerns (I am not bothering here to debate with haters, only with those who are genuinely concerned that this might sexism…

Thanks for the comment. Sorry your hope at the bottom of your post is a pipe dream :) I am a woman. I am thinking of being a founder. I guess I'm a founder of something since I'm working on selling products (ebooks) online. (Huh. A realization.) I am totally interested in this Female Founders conference because I might see people "like me" who have succeeded. How exciting to learn from them what worked! Some guy will…

>But not one of these guys is going to show me by example how a short woman can come across as authoritative but not (too) bitchy or how a woman can negotiate for VC funding effectively without bringing a guy along

How about doing it the same thing a man does? Why should you have to do it differently? Do you think women have to bat their eyelashes or wear skimpy outfits? I am not following why you need to learn this from women? To me this is like saying your public speaking professor has to be a women or you won't be able to learn from them.

>or how a woman can manage a public or pseudonymous online identity through the shoals of denigrating emails or sexually explicit snarking.

This isn't likely to happen in the first place, but just be professional and use your head. There is no particular trick to it. Just think about what you are doing (make wise choices). Don't post pictures of yourself in a bikini on your open permission Facebook page or Post your phone number online ETC. It isn't rocket science. Again, why do you need a women only convention to learn this?

Re: Announcing the Female Founders Conference (March 1)

#290
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I guess that's true if you consider being for legalized sex work the exact same as being against legalized sex work Why are you being so blatantly dishonest? She is not for legalized sex work, she is for making purchasing sex a crime. That is not legalizing sex work, it is simply not making the prostitutes side criminal. >"She views prostitution as violence against women and favors laws like those in Sweden, where t…

You really want to present this law as a matter of women wanting an "out"? You have no idea why anyone is advocating for this. I have no problem talking "men's issues." I have a problem, though, talking about men's issues with a person who hasn't even investigated the very foundation of what is happening in a situation before jumping to "me, me, me." Women are regularly-- constantly-- kidnapped and sexually/emotional…

Literally nothing you said has anything to do with me, or anything I said. Did you reply to the wrong post by accident or something?
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