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A Difficult Situation

blog.sendgrid.com

281–290 of 485 posts

Re: A Difficult Situation

#281
post #256
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such a lawsuit would be a confirmed kill on her career though. At least now she has a chance to someday salvage her work. Adding a lawsuit to the mix will probably mean she'll never be hired by anyone (who can read and is on the web) again.

Adding a lawsuit to the mix will probably mean she'll never be hired by anyone (who can read and is on the web) again. It's actually illegal to research job applicants in some jurisdictions. For instance, Finland. https://blogs.law.harvard.edu/infolaw/2006/11/15/finnish-emp...

It's unlikely she'll be moving to Finland, and full third-party background checks are de rigueur for many jobs in the United States.

Re: A Difficult Situation

#282
post #222

They need to update that statement with the fact that the joke was not about her, nor directed at her. Their statement leaves that very important part out, making the reader think otherwise - that she was the victim. At the same time (or around that time) this was happening, here is a conversation she was having - http://i.imgur.com/nRC5J7f.png Another gem from years ago - http://imgur.com/5tbXR2c I'd imagine she was…

> http://imgur.com/5tbXR2c My first thought was that this quote must be something made up by 4chan users to smear her or something, but it appear to be for real: https://twitter.com/adriarichards/statuses/6039856858

Argh, Jesus, I'm sick of people misrepresenting this tweet!

She's not saying that black people can't make racist statements and that they get a completely free pass when it comes to being racists. She's not. Stop saying that she is.

She's defining racism with a particularly sociological bent. She's saying that racism is an act by an oppressor towards the oppressed. When an oppressed person insults an oppressor they are operating within a power structure that has them at a disadvantage.

When she says "black people can't be racist towards white people" she is saying "the oppressed cannot, themselves, oppress their oppressors". That's why they're called "the oppressed".

Regardless of what you or I may say about her character, dragging this tweet out as evidence of her hypocrisy smacks of willful ignorance.

Re: A Difficult Situation

#283
post #222

They need to update that statement with the fact that the joke was not about her, nor directed at her. Their statement leaves that very important part out, making the reader think otherwise - that she was the victim. At the same time (or around that time) this was happening, here is a conversation she was having - http://i.imgur.com/nRC5J7f.png Another gem from years ago - http://imgur.com/5tbXR2c I'd imagine she was…

> http://imgur.com/5tbXR2c My first thought was that this quote must be something made up by 4chan users to smear her or something, but it appear to be for real: https://twitter.com/adriarichards/statuses/6039856858

http://imgur.com/7JmtRco

Courtesy of /g/

Re: A Difficult Situation

#284

Who didn't see this coming? And when she pulled SendGrid, her employer, publicly into the fray via her twitter feed, who didn't know it was simply a matter of time? I mean, what else could SendGrid possibly do? She basically forced them to fire her. Her value to the company is being a public face to developers . She very publicly destroyed that value. Further, she pulled SendGrid in with her tweet about them "support…

She didn't force them to fire her. People are just blowing this way out of proportion. Everybody needs to chill out, especially the corporate management of both companies.

holy shit, common sense

Re: A Difficult Situation

#285
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that those offering the threats would be to blame but what we were discussing was the cause , who in this case is Adria. Ethics are tricky, and I don't think there are blanket wrong or right answers here. I agree that simply placating a baying mob by tossing someone (metaphorically) to the wolves is not necessarily ethically right from all perspectives, but therein lies the problem: it's about perspective. We…

> For example, ethically a company has to do everything it can for it's shareholders. It's legally required to do this, and has an ethical responsibility to. This is not really the case, either as a matter of ethics or a matter of law. It's a widespread myth that there is an overriding legal responsibility to "maximize shareholder value", but that is not the case, and the myth is based on an over-reading of a century…

(Replying here from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5420421 as comment limit reached)

As the limit's been reached, and I'm not sure of the etiquette on hacker news for longer comments, I'll finish up my end of the discussion here.

I think this is a classic internet situation where everybody's in the wrong, especially the two companies. To sum up my position:

-The developers arguably shouldn't have made the jokes. I don't know if they were actually sexist jokes as (full disclosure) I'm not entirely trusting of everything Adria says, but as other people have mentioned, it was a professional event so they should have been conducting themselves professionally.

-PlayHaven shouldn't have fired the developer. They could perhaps have publicly followed through with some disciplinary action, and issued a statement and apology essentially saying that they didn't support his actions, and it might have ended there.

-SendGrid should have again followed through with disciplinary action in a similar manner. I think that prolonged exposure to Adria would have been harmful to their business, but that's a matter for them to consider and decide on.

In the end though, I think Adria's done the most harm. There were channels available for dealing with sexist comments at the conference, and according to her own blog she used them. It should have ended there, but she unfortunately escalated which started the avalanche after the first firing.

breath

Anyway, I think that's my position summed up really. I would continue this further, but unfortunately I have no more contact info for you than username. As an aside however, I noticed you're a researcher in AI - something I'd like to get into at some point. How did you get into that particular area of research, and what would you say are the main prerequisites to doing research in that area? I'm currently doing a BSc in CS, and I have some space for focus next year, but I'm still a little unsure where to focus at the moment, and what I should be reading and doing at the side.

Thanks for a nice civilised discussion! Have a good day!

Re: A Difficult Situation

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike when he very publicly fired an employee in the heat of the moment after his company was being DDoS'ed. I think the fact that Paul Graham, after applying Occam's razor, preferred to think it was done from a compromised account speaks volumes here.

Put yourself in his shoes for a moment though... your developer advocate brought on a DDoS. Whether it was deserved or not is an entirely separate discussion. It comes down to the person who is supposed to be helping get customers and grow your company did something that is bringing lots of harm. With that said... a "heat of the moment" firing does nobody any good, but I haven't seen evidence of the manner of the fir…

That brings about something interesting. While I completely believe that what SendGrid did was justified, what if it had occurred as a result of some other, more nuanced statement than the accusation in question?

For example, I believe that the second amendment allows Americans ownership of AR-15s, which some people refer to as 'assault rifles'. This is a hot button issue right now, and there are reasonable arguments on both sides of the debate. If I posted something that somehow offended approximately half of our customers (assuming approximately half of the people fall on either side of the debate) would that be terminable? Where is the threshold? If I post it from a company Twitter feed?

What is the right recourse if I said something that isn't particularly offensive to my employer, but harvests bad will from potential or current customers? Is "Developer Evangelist" a 'star-like' job position where I lose my right to privacy as a result of it?

Note, all these questions are hypothetical, but I'm curious as to exactly what degree of nonsense a company might be expected to put up with.

Re: A Difficult Situation

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the pleasure of knowing Adria and she's an awesome person, so sure, in a vacuum these events are super silly. However, in this instance, she is a public figure and used her public forum to promote an issue that was personal to her. Developers who make business decisions who rely on SendGrid follow her on Twitter and need to work with her. It's no different than a reporter for the NY Times who covers White Hous…

I like your example. Obama makes a bone-headed move, lets say he: "didn't veto a bill that allows companies to enforce locking in cellphones and tablets. It's going to be illegal to jailbreak now." A reporter from the NY time goes on twitter and badmouths The Obama administration for messing up. Well, this is the first Hacker News hears about it and goes crazy. Those JERKS! Inexplicably support is catalyzed and Obama…

I would not call using the reporters public forum that they most likely grew out of their career built because of the association with NY Times as a fair medium for candid discussion. This reporter's duty is to the editors and to the readers of the paper until this reporter is no longer employed by NY Times.

Ethics clauses are signed at date of hire for exactly reasons like this one. Companies want you to be part of their brand when you join their ranks. For positions that require a public forum, that includes off-hours as well.

NY Post will most likely be calling that reporter for a high-level visible position within the hour of the firing. So not all hope is lost, but depends on what kind of brand you want to speak for.

Re: A Difficult Situation

#289
I just hope Adria can learn from it, move on, and not let that cloud hang over her life.

As far as the CEO, it's his fault, and he should have apologized to the community. He failed to properly train and prepare his "developer evangelist".

As far as the guy who got fired, I hope he will find a better company to work with.

Ok. Can we go back to discussing javascript ad infinitum?

Re: A Difficult Situation

#290
What to say about this? The whole thing is a real train-wreck.

Yes, the two guys --if they truly behaved as accused-- were being dumb. No, they were probably not being malicious. They were being guys. We can be morons at times. No they were not going to rape or molest anyone. It was just a dumb moment. And one of them lost his job for it. Probably the wrong outcome.

And then there's this woman. Ready to jump the gun and not realize these dudes were just being idiots. Something which guys can do very well. Someone with more experience could have simply turned around and said something like "Hey, guys, c'mon, spare me the sexual jokes. You are being really rude.". Which would have elicited a red-faced apology from the guys and probably the potential for new friends and "Boy, were we a couple of idiots or what? Conversation". Everyone learns.

I think largely due to her lack of life experience she chose the wrong option. Is this a meme today? Dump your life onto the Internet and let the hordes sort it out? The problem with this choice is that it isn't private in any way and you loose control the minute you do it. As she did. And it cost her a job. Which is a shame.

It reminds me of a story I was told as a kid about telling lies being akin to ripping open a feather pillow atop a windy mountain. Once you do that it is nearly impossible to retrieve every feather.

There are probably multiple lessons to be learned here by all involved, including casual observers:

- Your actions have consequences. Be prepared to accept them as they are a result of your own decisions.

- Don't put your life on display on the Internet. Few of those looking through the glass are your friends. A lot of harm could come from being so open.

- Think before you act. And then think again. I was taught the "10M-10D-10Y" rating scale for the evaluation of situations requiring your response. You ask yourself three questions:

10M = Will this situation have a significant effect on me, my family, friends and loved ones within the next ten minutes?

10D = Same question, ten day period.

10Y = Same question, ten+ year period.

If a situation will become completely and utterly unimportant in ten minutes, it isn't even worth a response. Guy cutting you off on the road. Someone lobbying an insult in your direction. A jerk challenging you on HN. Your kid dropped a glass on the floor and broke it. etc.

If there will be consequences for ten days or so, take a look at the situation and decide on an appropriate and measured response to the problem. Someone stole your credit card of wallet. The IRS wants a tax return. You got a parking ticket. etc.

If, on the other hand, the situation is such that it would affect you, your family and/or those close to you for ten or more years, the response would be vastly different. An extreme example would be that of being held-up at gun-point with your kids next to you. Or, possibly, doing a really stupid thing that affects your career for a long time (maybe not ten years, but years nevertheless).

Anyhow, the point is that our actions have consequences and, unfortunately here are two folks who --fair or not-- will never forget the choices they made that day.

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