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Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

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Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#281

Post by bonoboTP »

cpburns2009 wrote: post #199
zero_shift wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel this was already a severe problem pre-AI. From what I hear from my partner (in university administration), nearly half the students demand accomodations for disabilities. Many of those conditions are very difficult to falsify It doesn't feel good, but at some point we have to ask, can we support every single case, at the expense of the whole? I'd like to be convinced that's not a necessary tradeoff

What I don't get is why we disadvantage everyone who's honest. Just give everyone extra time to level the playing field.

If you give it to everyone, it's not "extra", is it? It's just a longer exam.

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#282

Post by rowanG077 »

cloudie78 wrote: post #168
azalemeth wrote: post #3

This is already the case for Master's degrees and above in Denmark. I've been the opponent examining students. We ask Master's students to give US instruction on a topic (drawn randomly on a card in front of them, from a list they know a few days in advance). They do a chalk and talk on a topic for about fifteen minutes with three to five professors being "dumb students". It works fantastically and at the end it's ve…

Hi, former student with social phobia and terrified of public speaking. Today: adult with no problems doing public speaking in front of hundreds. What fixed me: more public speaking and not having the option of avoiding the task.

As a counterpoint. Simply getting older and more confident fixed it for me. From highschool to university It was terrible for me, it even got worse. A few years later during work it was simply fixed. From my perspective forcing children and young adults to this seems almost immoral.

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#283

Post by scarlehoff »

Almondsetat wrote: post #119
scarlehoff wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not familiar with the German universiry system, but I think a 1 hour, 2 professors (or one professor and one PhD student) would be impossible to scale. A class of about 100 students could take an entire month! (or better, 2-months of professor-hours!)

What is the point of this reply? GP already specified oral exams are mostly reserved to courses with smaller numbers

In order for it to be a solution against AI it needs to also work for courses with bigger numbers.

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#284

Post by FireBeyond »

zem wrote: post #129
talon8635 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have always disliked public speaking and oral defense since I was a child, to the point of fairly profound anxiety. But please withhold you woe—these people are, as I am today, adults. Masters students. Coddling them and holding low expectations has proven to be a sort of “killing them with kindness” approach to handling modern youth. People need to be encouraged (and required) to do things they don’t like to becom…

> But please withhold you woe as a side note, "woe betide you" roughly means "you're in for a very bad time", not "I feel sorry for you".

Or, to steal from Billy Connolly, he's the student who doesn't hand in his homework, "Woby Tide, the boy who doesn't submit his final paper before the bell!"

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#285

Post by cpburns2009 »

bonoboTP wrote: post #281
cpburns2009 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don't get is why we disadvantage everyone who's honest. Just give everyone extra time to level the playing field.

If you give it to everyone, it's not "extra", is it? It's just a longer exam.

That's precisely the point. Stop giving people unfair advantages.

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#286

Post by bonoboTP »

cpburns2009 wrote: post #285
bonoboTP wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you give it to everyone, it's not "extra", is it? It's just a longer exam.

That's precisely the point. Stop giving people unfair advantages.

Well, the prevailing wisdom is that these accommodations improve fairness. To confront that way of seeing things is an uphill battle in the current intellectual environment.

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#287

Post by cpburns2009 »

bonoboTP wrote: post #286
cpburns2009 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's precisely the point. Stop giving people unfair advantages.

Well, the prevailing wisdom is that these accommodations improve fairness. To confront that way of seeing things is an uphill battle in the current intellectual environment.

I know it's a losing battle. The way I see it is if you're not going to test performance under pressure, give everyone as much time as they want (within reason). If you want a fair stress test, don't discriminate and give special privileges.

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#288

Post by bonoboTP »

cpburns2009 wrote: post #287
bonoboTP wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the prevailing wisdom is that these accommodations improve fairness. To confront that way of seeing things is an uphill battle in the current intellectual environment.

I know it's a losing battle. The way I see it is if you're not going to test performance under pressure, give everyone as much time as they want (within reason). If you want a fair stress test, don't discriminate and give special privileges.

Well, they don't see it as privileges, but accommodations for a health condition. The measurement method needs to be adjusted when the health condition is present, to make the same kind of determination about the acquired knowledge. Experts have likely written expert publications about this being like this and hence it is The Science.

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#289

Post by hackyhacky »

otterley wrote: post #156
hackyhacky wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. And just like with a martial arts student, if you kick their butt too hard, you will lose the customer and might get sued.

Sued for giving out hard work assignments? That doesn't sound plausible. Under what theory would a student have a case?

Teachers and school districts are often sued by irate parents when their little golden angel gets a bad grade. Schools are therefore incentivized to allow all students to pass, regardless of ability.

https://www.cbsnews.com/philadelphia/news/suing-over-bad-gra...

https://www.npr.org/2007/03/13/8278150/parent-sues-school-ov...

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