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Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

theguardian.com

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Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#281

Post by bigfudge »

bluegatty wrote: post #263
adjejmxbdjdn wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the past countries would buy American equipment even if it wasn’t the best fit because that would make you essentially an American ally. Being part of the U.S. ecosystem was valuable. Unfortunately, over the last 1.5 years, the political value proposition has turned by 180 degrees. - Being a U.S. ally no longer guarantees that you will be protected by the U.S. as Ukraine is seeing. But the U.S. has been tearing ag…

So I don't think 'buying US gear made you an ally' - it was just part of the package, and in some cases, the US would 'require allies' to buy. The US Ambassador to Canada is openly threatening Carney right now with some procurement things - the 'Big One' is the F35. This is Can PM Carney playing a decent card, and biding for time until the midterms, and then waiting out the 'lame duck' period. 'Border State Republica…

I think this is complacent. The rest of the world is actively seeking opportunities to decouple. The US is so embedded in defence ecosystems at the moment that is a delicate balance because we are all still dependent on US space and logistics capabilities. But Ukraine and Eastern Europe and building the foundation for conventional forces to be supplied without the US, and although it will take longer, Sweden France and Uk have the aerospace chops to reduce dependency on the US too.

We are unlikely to reach parity any time soon, if at all. But that isn’t needed for the goal to be worthwhile.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#282

Post by munk-a »

866-RON-0-FEZ wrote: post #56
munk-a wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without the second election of Trump? It's likely. Canada's aircraft industry got majorly burned by the US in 2017 during his first administration and Biden didn't significantly reverse the impact in any way.

> Canada's aircraft industry got majorly burned by the US in 2017 Canada's aircraft industry has been on life support since long before Trump took office, having been forced to partner up with China. The C-Series was divested to Airbus, the Dash 8 isn't produced anymore, and all Bombardier proper produces are biz-jets.

I don't disagree that Bombardier commercial aircraft was struggling before that tariff - but it absolutely was the nail in the coffin. They actually ended up selling off the C-Series to Airbus for 1 CAD as a symbolic f-you to Boeing over the whole affair. The WTO ended up finding in Bombardier's favor but it came in too late to save the company from the financial damage.

Whether the C-Series would have been profitable for Bombardier without the extreme heavy-handed US intervention is not particularly clear but the outlook already wasn't great - still, it's inarguable that Boeing leveraged lobbying to quicken Bombardier's demise.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#283

Post by cmrdporcupine »

joering2 wrote: post #50
kashunstva wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada has historically relied on a relatively stable trading relationship with the U.S. That relationship is a shambles. It remains to be seen how Canada retools itself; I imagine that we will see a blend of on-shoring and new trading sources. So it’s less of an issue of “can’t” and more “hasn’t (yet)”.

Frankly to me the fact Canada is "retooling itself" knowing well that this nightmare should be over in less than 3 years, and most likely next President will be a Democrat, but yet they keep retooling, means their strong (reliable?) assumption is that Trump Administration won't leave the office at all, similar to how Putin stayed in power in what arguingly is a Democratic Country.

It's actually that I think most expect the Democrats to either be to weak to fix it, or not much better even if they can win big. That's part of it, anyways.

That and there's been a clearly protectionist bias also among Democrats as well. We had to lobby the crap out of the Biden admin to get "Buy American" provisions to not exclude some standard Canadian things, etc. etc.

At the same time, flipping things around... it's clear that Carney and Co are holding out for November mid-terms on the trade front. Conservatives here keep lambasting them for not sitting down to bargain with the US to hammer out a deal, which is just the stupidest losingest idea you can think of. Trump is going to get hammered in November -- why would we sign a deal with a loser like that? To our disadvantage?

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#284

Post by NuclearPM »

bigfudge wrote: post #281
bluegatty wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I don't think 'buying US gear made you an ally' - it was just part of the package, and in some cases, the US would 'require allies' to buy. The US Ambassador to Canada is openly threatening Carney right now with some procurement things - the 'Big One' is the F35. This is Can PM Carney playing a decent card, and biding for time until the midterms, and then waiting out the 'lame duck' period. 'Border State Republica…

I think this is complacent. The rest of the world is actively seeking opportunities to decouple. The US is so embedded in defence ecosystems at the moment that is a delicate balance because we are all still dependent on US space and logistics capabilities. But Ukraine and Eastern Europe and building the foundation for conventional forces to be supplied without the US, and although it will take longer, Sweden France a…

What is complacent?

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#285

Post by sleepyguy »

hnburnsy wrote: post #24

Boeing and Airbus have tremendous backlogs... >As of March 31st, 2026, Airbus reported a commercial aircraft backlog of 9,031 aircraft. Based on the company’s 2026 delivery target of 870 aircraft, this represents approximately 10.4 years of production coverage. >Boeing’s commercial backlog stood at approximately 6,719 aircraft at the end of March. Using Forecast International’s production estimates, Boeing’s backlog…

What does a commercial backlog have to do with an aircraft for military purposes? I'm sure there is a different lane for military aircraft. Anyone ordering an aircraft for military purposes is not going to sit on the same waiting list as a commercial airline.

Canada is aligning itself with it's European Allies. Several EU NATO members have chosen the same aircraft over Boeing.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#287

Post by golem14 »

felooboolooomba wrote: post #222
hermitcrab wrote: post #72

In related news: https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2026/05/21/italy-moves-to... I guess insulting and threatening your allies isn't great for arms sales.

If people want to grasp the view of US in Europe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8qSZO4jvTI (You can watch just the first minute to get the gist)

And speech was from 1yr ago. The view has probably not improved since ?

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#288

Post by dwd »

slavik81 wrote: post #187
throwaway27448 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's kind of insane they trusted us to begin with. Why?

Americans were our brothers. We had been partners for over a hundred years.

And yet...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_Red

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#289

Post by mschuster91 »

ianm218 wrote: post #202
jleyank wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, there is nothing in the US system (as far as I can see) that prevents Trump-like behaviour being the new standard. There were three supposedly independent, contentious branches of Government. One is inert (legislature), one enabled Trump (SCOTUS) and the third, of course, is Trump. I am unaware of any mechanism that can change things.

Trump-like behavior isn't the inevitable result of the US System though. We could've had another 20 presidents in a row who didn't go and break the norm of maintaining global alliances and not threatening to invade our neighbors and closest allies constantly. So it's relevant to ask if this would still be happening without Trumps antics, even isolationists like JD Vance wouldn't force our allies hands like this.

> We could've had another 20 presidents in a row who didn't go and break the norm of maintaining global alliances and not threatening to invade our neighbors and closest allies constantly.

US Presidents and other influential leaders, particularly Republicans, breaking any and all norms when it suited them has always been a thing. 'member Watergate? Moscow's Bitch McConnell? Bush Sr invading Iraq? Bush Jr invading Afghanistan (I'll give him a pass on that one though) and Iraq? Trump all but eliminating NATO, setting the stage for Biden to completely get bonked on the Afghanistan retreat, and now invading Iran? Republicans yapping about "financial stability" when a Democrat is in power and gorging themselves on debt and tax cuts for the uber rich when they get in power?

The US political system has been rotting from the inside for well over half a century. Trump was inevitable because when you got a rotting compost pile, eventually there will be fat maggots rising out of it.

If us Europeans are to trust the US again, y'all need, just like us Germans after WW2, prove you can be trusted again. Reform campaign financing, voter suppression, FPTP, the entire way how Congress works, break apart your mega corporations, and finally arrest everyone involved in Trump's presidency and, while we're at it, Sam Altman. Y'all need to go through a serious reckoning, acknowledge how hard y'all fried not just your own country but everyone else as well, make amends for it and prevent a repeat.

Re: Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers

#290

Post by golem14 »

throwaway85825 wrote: post #103
e40 wrote: post #97

Over the last few months we've seen announcements of shifts from US-based supply chains to non-US-supply chains. As an American, I think this is prudent, based on what has happened in the last year and change. The US is no longer a reliable partner and this is what you do when that happens. 100 years from now, the last 15 months will be written about in no uncertain terms: this administration has loaded many footguns…

Look around you. What products do you own with a US supply chain and what has a Chinese supply chain.

Maybe the insanely expensive ($400 +, for no good reason) kitchen mixers?

Though, one can buy inexpensive chinese ones if one knows where to look.

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