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DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

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Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#281

Post by gruez »

rvz wrote: post #275

While Anthropic, OpenAI and Google continue to charge an expensive amount of $$$ for in/output per million tokens and Microsoft complaining that AI costs more than hiring humans [0] and changes their pricing, it appears that Jevons paradox applies only to Deepseek. This is why companies like Anthropic are absolutely against you running your own models in the name of "safety" when what Deepseek is doing is racing ever…

>There is no moat in the model.

What's the "moat" in giving models away for free? Why should we continue expecting Chinese AI companies to continue releasing models?

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#282

Post by Petersipoi »

daniel_iversen wrote: post #276

I'm quite sure (and you could find it somewhere of course) that the Chinese models would've been fine-tuned for certain leanings and world views. Even so, at what point is even the quality risk (assuming your use case won't be affected by those adjustments) and any potential privacy concerns outweighed by the fact that it's literally an order of magnitude (and sometimes multiple, for output tokens etc!) cheaper than…

I'm quite sure that the American models have been fine-tuned for certain leanings and world views

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#283

Post by out_of_protocol »

solenoid0937 wrote: post #277
daniel_iversen wrote: post #276

I'm quite sure (and you could find it somewhere of course) that the Chinese models would've been fine-tuned for certain leanings and world views. Even so, at what point is even the quality risk (assuming your use case won't be affected by those adjustments) and any potential privacy concerns outweighed by the fact that it's literally an order of magnitude (and sometimes multiple, for output tokens etc!) cheaper than…

I suspect for many companies, the sunk cost of tokens relative to the output gain is low. The productivity gain we get from AI is such that using the latest Opus or GPT far outweighs the cost savings using a non frontier Chinese model. Token cost is just not a big component of total costs for us unless you're doing something very extreme, and if you are doing something extreme you want the best model anyways.

Did anybody compared these directly using exactly same prompts and harness? I assume V4 Pro could be real frontier model, and if it's true, it'd be better to use it in automation or routine steps instead of simple models (e.g. haiku or even sonnet if V4pro is better)

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#284

Post by amelius »

FfejL wrote: post #278

Turing was half right. Pass his test and you haven't proven a machine can think — you've proven it can make us think it does. That's a far more dangerous thing to have built.

At least we're not thinking that it is God. Is there a name for that test?

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#285

Post by bryanlarsen »

comrade1234 wrote: post #271

Reminds me of this parking ramp I used to use occasionally. I'd park for hours and when leaving the guy in the booth would tell me the charge and it would always be ridiculously low, like $0.50 or $1.00. Definitely not enough to pay for the guy to sit in the booth. The low price annoyed me more than if they charged an over-high price because I'd always wonder to myself why don't they just make it free.

IIUC, most parking lots are real estate plays -- the real money is in flipping the land; money made from parking tolls is gravy.

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#286

Post by estearum »

Petersipoi wrote: post #282
daniel_iversen wrote: post #276

I'm quite sure (and you could find it somewhere of course) that the Chinese models would've been fine-tuned for certain leanings and world views. Even so, at what point is even the quality risk (assuming your use case won't be affected by those adjustments) and any potential privacy concerns outweighed by the fact that it's literally an order of magnitude (and sometimes multiple, for output tokens etc!) cheaper than…

I'm quite sure that the American models have been fine-tuned for certain leanings and world views

Right, but they're ones that are more concordant with the leanings and world views of the people and businesses that frequent this forum.

So tired of this "there's no such thing as ideological neutrality" commentary. We get it. Move on. Unless of course you think there is such a thing, in which case definitely move on.

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#288

Post by revolvingthrow »

Amusing that just when the big three AI providers from US raise prices significantly, even for the mini models, you’ve got a Chinese model slashing their already-cheap offer by 75%. Not to mention you can run this model on your own hardware, although admittedly even the flash stretches the meaning of local for individual people.

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#289

Post by nicce »

daniel_iversen wrote: post #276

I'm quite sure (and you could find it somewhere of course) that the Chinese models would've been fine-tuned for certain leanings and world views. Even so, at what point is even the quality risk (assuming your use case won't be affected by those adjustments) and any potential privacy concerns outweighed by the fact that it's literally an order of magnitude (and sometimes multiple, for output tokens etc!) cheaper than…

At this point I don’t see the difference between the U.S. or China what it comes to privacy concerns anymore. US might be even worse. Run locally if you want privacy. At least Chinese make it possible.

Re: DeepSeek makes the V4 Pro price discount permanent

#290

Post by lot-xcvb »

daniel_iversen wrote: post #276

I'm quite sure (and you could find it somewhere of course) that the Chinese models would've been fine-tuned for certain leanings and world views. Even so, at what point is even the quality risk (assuming your use case won't be affected by those adjustments) and any potential privacy concerns outweighed by the fact that it's literally an order of magnitude (and sometimes multiple, for output tokens etc!) cheaper than…

For the average Western citizen it is more privacy invasive to use Western models. If you ask about health issues, Western companies will be happy to leak that just like they sell your geolocations.

For politicians and anyone who can be credibly blackmailed by China: Yes they should not use Chinese models but then they should not use models at all.

For z.ai the political bias by default is Western (if you connect from the West). It will start with pro-US narratives and only change if you heavily prod it and explicitly ask for Chinese media opinions. Yes, it censors Tiananmen but that is just a gimmick. Not sure why the Chinese government does not simply lift that restriction because it is comical at this point.

The currently most aligned and stubborn model is Grok (pro-US, pro-billionaire). The rest can always be persuaded with the appropriate prompts.

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