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Two millionth electric car registered as market rebounds from tax changes

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Re: Two millionth electric car registered as market rebounds from tax changes

#281

Post by physicsguy »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #165
physicsguy wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People on higher salaries are disproportionately likely to be the ones doing it though - much much more likely to work for companies that implement the schemes for a start.

Yes, "higher salaries" as in higher tax band (median salary is 39k, higher tax band starts at 50k), which impacts 16% of people. That's why it has an notable impact on sales and also on the used cars market (salary sacrifice schemes are usually PCP/leasing over 3-4 years). Perhaps it is the "London bubble" on HN as I feel that no-one is registering that 100k+ is a really, really small minority...

I'm not based in London.

Re: Two millionth electric car registered as market rebounds from tax changes

#282

Post by alt227 »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #196
KaiserPro wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

according to the IFS 100k+ is top 10% earner in the UK. Which does feel a bit bubbly to me

Yes, seems a bit generous. What I found most often is ~4-5% with up to 18% higher tax payers (>50k) in latest tax year (threshold being frozen...).

> What I found most often

How did you find this?

Re: Two millionth electric car registered as market rebounds from tax changes

#283

Post by tzs »

dalyons wrote: post #270
tzs wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That data needs to be split out by how the person acquired their PHEV. In much of Europe the majority of PHEVs are purchased by companies because of tax incentives. I remember seeing a study which said that people who are driving a PHEV because it was assigned to them by their employer are much less likely to plug it in than are ordinary consumers who bought or leased a PHEV.

Does it? It’s a million cars sampled at random. Perhaps fleet affects that a little, but these are big numbers. Claimed 80% reduction in emissions, real world 20%. Some fleet skew is not going to impact that meaningfully > In much of Europe the majority of PHEVs are purchased by companies because of tax incentives. Love to see some evidence for that being the majority

In Portugal a whopping 87% of PHEV registrations are to corporations [1]. It was close to 60% in the UK a few years ago [2].

This should not be too surprising, once you learn another fact that is probably more surprising: corporate sales make up a majority of car sales in much of Europe. Around 65% in Germany, 60% in UK, 55% in France (the 3 largest car markets in Europe).

Corporate buyers love PHEVs. They get many of the same or similar tax breaks that full EVs get, whereas hybrids that are not PHEVs usually just get the same corporate tax treatment that ICE cars get. Even though a PHEV usually costs more upfront than a similar regular hybrid which usually costs more than a similar pure ICE, the tax breaks make the PHEV a better deal even if the company has no intention of ever plugging it in.

Compare to individual buyers. They get much fewer incentives from the government. For them the higher cost of a PHEV over a regular hybrid only makes sense if they are going to plug the thing in.

Countries are starting to phase out the PHEV tax breaks for corporations, so we should start seeing the percent of PHEVs that actually get plugged in start to go up.

[1] https://theicct.org/publication/european-market-monitor-cars...

[2] https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/car-industry-news/2022/05/3...

Re: Two millionth electric car registered as market rebounds from tax changes

#284

Post by youngtaff »

Chaosvex wrote: post #180
KaiserPro wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its £77 a week. so its not going to buy you a top end car, you'll need to top up. if you want something "decent"

I'm not talking about that. The government waives multiple taxes for the scheme. Off the top of my head, no VAT on the car purchases, no luxury tax on vehicles worth £40k+, no insurance tax, no VED (road tax). The scheme has cost billions in lost revenue and it's the only reason it can exist. The exact accounting is up for debate because it's complex but nonetheless.

There are / were no £40k+ cars available on Motability

Can't find it now but there's a breakdown of the cars supplied somewhere and even when small BMWs etc were available very few people chose them - most people chose smaller average cars

Motability also plays a huge role in priming the used car market in the UK - without them there would be less choice and cars would be more expensive

Re: Two millionth electric car registered as market rebounds from tax changes

#285

Post by rsynnott »

rsynnott wrote: post #277
Freedom2 wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious as to why American EVs never took off. The US is the most advanced country technologically and has the greatest soft power in history to make deals.

> The US is the most advanced country technologically Certainly not in cars. The US car industry really more or less stopped even _trying_ to compete internationally in the 90s or so. The sole exception was Ford, but they went for an unusual approach where Ford Europe designed its own cars, using parts from Bosch etc. Ford Europe is now also all but dead in the consumer space, too. To a large extent the US car indust…

Incidentally, it's far from what you'd expect, but the US is actually probably more influential in public transport than private transport on an export basis; Cummins is very competitive in the diesel engine space for buses, and the ridiculously-named Wabtec (previously GE and Westinghouse's train-y divisions) is big in locomotive tech.

Though AIUI US companies are largely failing to keep up there, now, too; diesel city buses are on the way out, and electric bus powertrains are largely Chinese or European.

Re: Two millionth electric car registered as market rebounds from tax changes

#286

Post by Hikikomori »

diego_moita wrote: post #230
Freedom2 wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious as to why American EVs never took off. The US is the most advanced country technologically and has the greatest soft power in history to make deals.

Several reasons: 1. Unlike the rest of the world, EVs were sold in the US as muscle cars for rich people (e.g. Tesla). Everywhere else they're cheap cars for urban commuters (e.g. BYD). 2. Republicans sabotaged every attempt from the Democrats to get EVs going on. 3. Space and demography: EVs do very well in small countries (e.g. Europe) or big countries with a concentrated population (e.g.Brasil, Nigeria). They do p…

3. Sweden/Norway have a lot of EVs while distances are not small like Netherlands etc and are also less urban than the US.

Re: Two millionth electric car registered as market rebounds from tax changes

#287

Post by iso1631 »

benj111 wrote: post #75
iso1631 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the majority of people in the uk have or can have access to home charging it's not a major problem https://www.racfoundation.org/research/mobility/still-standi... Wales – 75% of households have – or could have – off-street parking and EV charging England – 68% Scotland – 63% In London, sure, most homes don't have off-street parking and ev charging, but then only half the households in London have a car htt…

I think you're somewhat underselling the problem. Even in Wales, 25% can't. This isn't a figure you can ignore. And that's a hypothetical, it relies on landlords playing ball etc. then there's the social issues. On the north of England we have lots of terraces built for mill workers, these aren't owned by the richest on society. So then you're in the situation of charging the poorest more for transport. And these are…

Many of those "can't" won't have cars. 20% of households in Wales have no car.

Now clearly that 25% and 20% won't overlap exactly, but they will overlap a lot

When 80% of cars in the UK are electric and 20% are those households who rely on public streets to store their belongings for 23 hours a day, then sure that will be a problem

Given that there's only about 2 million electric cars in the UK, yet 18 million homes which can charge electric cars, that's a long way off.

Re: Two millionth electric car registered as market rebounds from tax changes

#288

Post by Chaosvex »

youngtaff wrote: post #284
Chaosvex wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about that. The government waives multiple taxes for the scheme. Off the top of my head, no VAT on the car purchases, no luxury tax on vehicles worth £40k+, no insurance tax, no VED (road tax). The scheme has cost billions in lost revenue and it's the only reason it can exist. The exact accounting is up for debate because it's complex but nonetheless.

There are / were no £40k+ cars available on Motability Can't find it now but there's a breakdown of the cars supplied somewhere and even when small BMWs etc were available very few people chose them - most people chose smaller average cars Motability also plays a huge role in priming the used car market in the UK - without them there would be less choice and cars would be more expensive

> There are / were no £40k+ cars available on Motability

This is categorically false.

> Motability also plays a huge role in priming the used car market in the UK

You could also argue that it's distorting the market. Having billions worth of subsidies supporting a market isn't necessarily good.

Re: Two millionth electric car registered as market rebounds from tax changes

#289

Post by Chaosvex »

KaiserPro wrote: post #274
Chaosvex wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, Motability buy the cars. Stop trying to come up with gotchas.

its a lease, I just don't know what to tell you

Yes, subsidised by the government. That's all.

Re: Two millionth electric car registered as market rebounds from tax changes

#290

Post by dalyons »

dalyons wrote: post #247
jeffbee wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not addressing the claim that PHEVs can't reach highway speeds on batteries. That is a ridiculous claim, and it is false. You will not be able to name even one PHEV on the market with this limitation, because they do not exist.

its acceleration that causes them to drop out of EV mode, when the weak EV drives cant produce enough power. Can you accelerate all the way to highway speed in real world driving without it dropping out? for some yes, for many no, from the guardian article: "Even when the cars were driven in electric mode, the analysis found that levels of pollution were well above official estimates. The researchers said this was be…

Here’s an even better source, which makes it absolutely clear that their electric engines are too weak in the real world.

“In practice, the combustion engine frequently assists the electric motor in CD mode, especially during acceleration, at higher speeds or uphill driving. On average, the ICE supplies power during almost one third of the distance driven in CD mode. This is largely due to insufficient e-motor power, as most PHEVs are not designed to operate fully electrically under typical real-world conditions.”

“ The largest gap between WLTP and real-world PHEV emissions occurs in CD mode, often referred to as an “electric” mode where real-world CD emissions are even higher than the WLTP average. According to T&E analysis, real-world CO₂ emissions in CD mode average around 68 gCO₂/km, which is nearly nine times as high as the estimated 8 gCO₂/km in CD mode under the WL TP methodology, and almost twice the WL TP average overall emissions (including both electric and combustion modes). In practice, the combustion engine frequently assists the electric motor in CD mode, especially during acceleration, at higher speeds or uphill driving. On average, the ICE supplies power during almost one third of the distance driven in CD mode. This is largely due to insufficient e-motor power, as most PHEVs are not designed to operate fully electrically under typical real-world conditions. This relationship is illustrated by the correlation between e-motor-to-combustion-engine power ratio and emissions in CD mode: vehicles with an average power ratio between electric motor and combustion engine of 0.9, emit approximately 45 gCO2/km in CD mode. An average PHEV with a ratio of 0.7 has emissions of around 68 gCO2/km. Vehicles in the lower decile in terms of their ratio of electric motor to combustion engine power, where it drops to around 0.5, have average CD mode emissions of 105 gCO2/km. In real-world conditions, petrol PHEVs consume around 3 L/100km in electric mode. “

https://uploads.transportenvironment.org/production/files/20...

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