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You are not your job

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Re: You are not your job

#281

Post by keybored »

logicchains wrote: post #175
oytis wrote: post #49

People don't need self-help advise, they need a fair redistribution of increased productivity. We don't make a big deal of our jobs because we are stupid - it's the society that assigns this or that income to this or that job, and income determines lifestyle or in worst case the survival.

>People don't need self-help advise, they need a fair redistribution of increased productivity. The increased productivity is pretty much entirely coming from AI researchers and the companies investing in huge amounts of GPUs, and they are the ones receiving most of the windfalls, how's that not fair?

Even if that was true. There’s the training data.

Re: You are not your job

#282

Post by pyrale »

david-gpu wrote: post #210
pyrale wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Thus, yes, in rich countries we have collectively decided that "caring for everyone" is not the best way forward, because we see that it becomes unsustainable when you go too far. What rich country are you talking about? Most developed countries have elected to have social safety nets, and that includes the US to some extent. "Caring for everyone" in your message looks like some form of utopia where no one would ha…

> "Caring for everyone" in your message looks like some form of utopia where no one would have to work, but that has never been advocated anywhere. Have you never met an advocate for UBI? How do you interpret OP's "We possess the means to care for everyone -- yet choose not to" in its context? > Also what does "we" mean in that context Voters. Voters have collectively decided, in all developed countries, to strike a…

UBI is based on the idea that some people will still want/need to work. It is not related to freeing people from work, but to ensure that people's basic needs (housing, food, health) are met even if, for some reason, they are unable to work. Usually, UBI proponents claim the main difference between UBI and the current nets is that it would simplify the administrative control structure.

The intent of UBI (make sure everyone has their basic needs met) isn't different from the current safety nets. And, of course, since shit has to be made in order to be consumed, UBI requires people to keep working.

> Voters. Voters have collectively decided, in all developed countries [...] I am trying to explain that there are good reasons why we do that; it is not a moral failure.

It's not a once for all choice, though. Safety nets in all countries have evolved gradually, and are still evolving. Opposing yesterday's voter choices to today or tomorrow's activist hopes is a misunderstanding of the way democracy works. Every choice voters have made about social nets in the past happened because someone started saying "we have the means to do this, why shouldn't we do it?"

Re: You are not your job

#283

Post by tock »

bigDinosaur wrote: post #271
tock wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not surprised because most people in the world only have time to work/commute/sleep. Stuff like hobbies, sabbaticals, vacations, etc are quite rare. I've only seen the contrary when I met Europeans.

Domestic tourism is massive even in countries with terrible work culture like China, so your claim is not particularly strong. Either way, hobbies and holidays are certainly not unique to NA and Europe.

1. There are far worse places to work than China :)

2. I was comparing everyone against EU. NA included.

Re: You are not your job

#284

Post by oytis »

logicchains wrote: post #175
oytis wrote: post #49

People don't need self-help advise, they need a fair redistribution of increased productivity. We don't make a big deal of our jobs because we are stupid - it's the society that assigns this or that income to this or that job, and income determines lifestyle or in worst case the survival.

>People don't need self-help advise, they need a fair redistribution of increased productivity. The increased productivity is pretty much entirely coming from AI researchers and the companies investing in huge amounts of GPUs, and they are the ones receiving most of the windfalls, how's that not fair?

Depends on your ethics I guess? In my view fair distribution is an equitable one, which is also the principle that helps to keep society stable. Not that researchers and business people should not be rewarded for their achievement, but the reward should be moderate and limited in time instead of creating a permanent underclass or whatever the plan is now IMO

Re: You are not your job

#285

Post by weinzierl »

abcde666777 wrote: post #122

Being able to see ourselves as something beyond our job (our means of survival) is a luxury. If a person can't provide for themselves the rest goes out the window fast. The only way to ease the anxiety in people isn't with fluff about their 'human worth', but rather to help them envision other tangible and plausible ways in which they can provide for themselves. The cold reality, in my opinion, is that the things we…

But isn't it the other way around. The more wealthy you get the more valuable things become and the people around you become less valuable. Superficially it sounds counterintuitive and yet it is what we observe, even if it is a not very flattering observation about human nature.

I realized this first when I travelled Latin America as a young person. It was quite surprising to me never to get asked about my job but often about a family thousands of kilometers away and without any chance for the stranger speaking to me to ever meet any of them.

Only if you see yourself defined by the friends and family that surround you it suddenly makes sense.

Re: You are not your job

#286

Post by ourmandave »

xdertz wrote: post #234
Ectiseethe wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [Within tribes, if] you can't do anything, at least we still love you because you are kin. That's a nice sentiment, but do you have sources for the claim that tribes universally "loved" non-productive members just because they were kin?

There are many instances of braces and artificial limbs or that were found or fossilised bones that showed crippled people that grew into old-age, which provides evidence that people cared for 'non-productive' members.

The cynic in me wonders if it's because they were family members of the leader so got better health care.

Re: You are not your job

#287

Post by SkyeCA »

bogrollben wrote: post #249
rc-1140 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even software people have bills to pay and mouths to feed. I think people like the article author are either single or have no dependents, and it's a big reason I cannot take many of these posts seriously. Much like the story of Peter Pan, the authors of these posts are college students who never grew up and had to be responsible.

I agree 100%. The issue isn't losing my job. Many of us could deal with that by simply finding another similar job in the same (coding) industry. The issue is losing the entire industry. That thing you spent years becoming good at? Getting paid lots of money for? Oh, we killed it. Start over and pick something else. You probably won't be paid well, if you can even find anything, because you're starting from ground ze…

> Start over and pick something else.

Something else that they want to kill as well, don't forget that bit.

Re: You are not your job

#288

Post by flavionm »

sph wrote: post #224
abcde666777 wrote: post #122

Being able to see ourselves as something beyond our job (our means of survival) is a luxury. If a person can't provide for themselves the rest goes out the window fast. The only way to ease the anxiety in people isn't with fluff about their 'human worth', but rather to help them envision other tangible and plausible ways in which they can provide for themselves. The cold reality, in my opinion, is that the things we…

> The cold reality, in my opinion, is that the things we value about ourselves are generally not that valuable to others. I love my own personality and humanity, my soul if you will, but nobody's paying me for it, and so I have to value it accordingly. A good example of what tribes did better vs civilization: if you can do anything to help the tribe survive (I am a good hunter, you can create good bows), you are a pr…

We still do that, though, within our own little tribes inside civilization. Most people still love their grandparents, even though they're old. That just doesn't necessarily extend to all of civilization.

Re: You are not your job

#289

Post by skandinaff »

pdimitar wrote: post #220
titanomachy wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our society used to have religious beliefs that put special value on human lives / souls / whatever. Now for many people, capitalism and materialism is the only religion, and in this religion humans are reduced to their dollar value. But you should recognize that this is not a neutral choice: you have in fact chosen one of many possible value systems, and others may choose differently. Much of human behavior is not e…

Zero to do with religion, I knew quite a lot of atheists / agnostics who were extremely wholesome and caring people.

While that could be true, it's important to remember that these people probably grew up in a culture that had religion influence for thousands of years. In order to become atheist, one needs to renounce god, therefore have the idea of god, therefore, have some background knowledge of or about religion. That is to say, that these processes a not as simple, as one might think: take soviet union as an example - official atheist state - yet so much on interpersonal level remained based on humane values formed by thousand years of east orthodox chiristianity. And even though measly 70 years are not enough to make a significant dent in human behaviour - it did produced a lot of cynicism and misanthropy before going out the window.

Re: You are not your job

#290

Post by SkyeCA »

namelessone wrote: post #278
SkyeCA wrote: post #276

For all intents and purposes I am my job and I'm tired of people trying to pretend like this isn't true. As a human I am worth exactly what I'm able to earn, not a cent more and I am judged by others first and foremost based on my job title. I am not inherently valuable. I wish it wasn't like this, but this is the world we've built and all I can do is cope with it as those in power work on replacing me.

That depends a lot on your social circles, no? I’ve met plenty of people who never cared about or knew my job title or salary, and whose job titles and salaries I never cared about or knew.

I've been in circles where I thought it didn't matter and I've had people in my life who I thought didn't care...and then they find out (because good luck hiding the thing you do for 40+ hours a week) and the relationships permanently change.
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