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Some things just take time

lucumr.pocoo.org

281–290 of 295 posts

Re: Some things just take time

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Get me a job Heh, I'm a college student, so I can't help with that... You could also try Gemini 3 pro with Gemini's CLI which is free, though it's not as good at using tools. But, it sounds like you're not interested, which is fine! Just please don't continue to argue with finer points if you're not interested. I've done my best to engage with your points, but I get the sense that it doesn't matter what I say. I am…

I should note that I'm not the same person that you were talking to you the chain. So I hope we're not mixing conversations and people. I don't think I've said that much in this chain, so I can't answer much. But sure: >why do you feel so strongly about LLM products? Personally, I work in games. So pretty much everything in the discourse of LLMs and Gen AI has been amplified 5x for me. The layoffs, the gamers' reacti…

I have worked in games in the past, and currently work in games-adjacent. I'm sympathetic to the concerns you've mentioned, especially given how controversial it is (the recent reveal of DLSS5, which I find directionally interesting but executed poorly, is but one of many examples.)

From speaking to my friends in the industry, it seems like uptake for code is happening slowly, but unevenly, and the results are largely dependent on the level of documentation, which is often lacking. (I know of a few people using AI for (high-quality!) work on Godot, and their AIs struggle with many of the implicit conventions present in the codebase.)

With that being said, I would say that LLMs have generally been quite the boon for the (limited) gameplay work that I have done of recent. Because the cost of generation is so cheap [0], it is trivial to try something out, experiment with variations, and then polish it up or discard it entirely.

This also applies to performance work: if it's a metric that the AI can see and autonomously work on, it can be optimised. This is, of course, not always possible - it's hard to tell your AI to optimise arbitrary content - but it's often more possible than not, especially if you get creative. (Asking it to extract a particularly hot loop out from the code it resides within, and then optimising that, for example: entirely feasible.)

I think there are still growing pains, but I'm confident that LLMs will rock the world of gamedev, just like they're doing to other more well-attested fields of programming.

[0]: https://simonwillison.net/guides/agentic-engineering-pattern...

Re: Some things just take time

#282
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't wait for feedback from "real users", become a user! This tayloristic idea (which has now reincarnated in "design thinking") that you can observe someone doing a job and then decide better than them what they need is ridiculous and should die. Good products are built by the people who use the thing themselves. Doesn't mean though that choosing good features (product design and engineering) isn't a skill in itsel…

Too often that isn't possible. There is a lot of domain knowledge in making a widget there is a lot of domain knowledge in doing a job. when e complex job needs a complex widget often there isn't enough overlap to be experts in both. sure 'everyone' drives so you can be a domain expert in cars. However not everyone can be an astronaught - rockets are complex enough to need more people than astronaughts and so most pe…

I find that this argument is used too often to refrain from using your own product.

Yes you're right not anyone can be a domain expert. But anyone in the company needs to at least try to use the product as much as possible.

I worked in companies where even the CEO had never used the product but was telling us what to implement.

Re: Some things just take time

#283

With all the emphasis on the speed of modern AI tools, we often seem to forget that velocity is a vector quantity. Increased speed only gets us where we want to be sooner if we are also heading in the right direction. If we’re far enough off course, increasing speed becomes counterproductive and it ends up taking longer to get where we want to be. I’ve been noticing that this simple reality explains almost all of bot…

Imagine you're lost in a jungle, you know within 180 degrees where you should go to get to the nearest civilization.

If you need to spend actual humans searching every 10 degrees (or more if they need to go far), the cost might not be worth it. What if they don't come back? Every human scouting is not foraging for the group or protecting them from whatever is in the jungle,

Now if you have a near infinite capacity of autonomous drones you can send one every degree from your position and get an approximate estimate whether that direction is safe or not.

It's the same with programming, you can do a TON of exploratory crap with near zero extra cost. Just to see if that's the right direction or not. Basically lean in to the "fast but inaccurate" aspect of AI.

Like I had a hare-brained idea of a local web-based file manager / media browser that would use YOLOv8 and CLIP to tag and classify images and videos as you browse. Took me about 30 minutes of active time over a few evenings while doing other stuff to conclude that, yes, it IS doable. Now I can focus my actual brain on it.

Re: Some things just take time

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should note that I'm not the same person that you were talking to you the chain. So I hope we're not mixing conversations and people. I don't think I've said that much in this chain, so I can't answer much. But sure: >why do you feel so strongly about LLM products? Personally, I work in games. So pretty much everything in the discourse of LLMs and Gen AI has been amplified 5x for me. The layoffs, the gamers' reacti…

Crap, you're right. I swear, tiny usernames is both a boon and a curse... > Personally, I work in games. So pretty much everything in the discourse of LLMs and Gen AI has been amplified 5x for me. The layoffs, the gamers' reaction to stuff utilizing AI, the impact on hardware prices, the politics, etc. > Theres a war of consumers and executives, and I'm trapped in the middle taking heat from both. It's tiring and it'…

>When you say "true innovation", is that in terms of non-AI innovation, or non-slimy AI innovation?

A bit of both. Similar to other tech investment, all the gaming centric accelerators are looking for is AI pitches. Makes me wonder what innovations thr past few years have been overlooked in lieu of the Ai Gold Rush.

But I can see the long term (likely 5+ years out) potebtial of Ai as well. Once we stop using it as a means to steal from and remove artists, I can see all kinds of tedious problems with assets that Ai can accelerate. Generative fill is a glimpse of a genuinely useful tool that helps artists instead of pretending to be an artist itself.

Can it eventually write performant code? Maybe. The other big issue is that 1) a lot of code isn't online to train on and 2) a lot of that code is still a mess to process, with little standards to follow. Maybe it can help with graphics code (which is much more structured) in the near future.

Re: Some things just take time

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should note that I'm not the same person that you were talking to you the chain. So I hope we're not mixing conversations and people. I don't think I've said that much in this chain, so I can't answer much. But sure: >why do you feel so strongly about LLM products? Personally, I work in games. So pretty much everything in the discourse of LLMs and Gen AI has been amplified 5x for me. The layoffs, the gamers' reacti…

I have worked in games in the past, and currently work in games-adjacent. I'm sympathetic to the concerns you've mentioned, especially given how controversial it is (the recent reveal of DLSS5, which I find directionally interesting but executed poorly, is but one of many examples.) From speaking to my friends in the industry, it seems like uptake for code is happening slowly, but unevenly, and the results are largel…

>directionally interesting but executed poorly

Yeah, that sums up a lot of my thoughts with AI c. 2026.

I do take some schedenfreude knowing that AI training also struggles with the utter lack of documentation here. That may be a win in and of itself if this paradigm forces the games industry to properly care for tech writing.

>Because the cost of generation is so cheap [0], it is trivial to try something out, experiment with variations, and then polish it up or discard it entirely.

Well, that's another thing I'm less confident about. The cost is low, for now. But we also know these companies are in loss leader mode. It'll probably always be cheap for a company to afford agents, but I fear reliance on these giant server models will quickly price out ICs and smaller work environments.

That might be something China beats us too. They seem to be focusing on optimizing models that works on local machines out of necessity, as opposed to running tens of billions of dollars of compute. My other big bias is wanting to properly own as much of my pipeline as possible (to the point where my eventual indie journey is planning around OS tools and engines, despite my experience in both Unity and UE), and current incentives for these companies don't want that.

Re: Some things just take time

#288
post #55

I've been working on a clone of Sid Meier's Pirates but with a princess theme (for my daughters). I've been using AI to help me write it and I've come to a couple conclusions: - AI can make working PoCs incredibly quickly - It can even help me think of story lines, decision paths etc - Given that, there is still a TON of decisions to be made e.g. what artwork to use, what makes sense from a story perspective - Playte…

I've tried a few game projects with coding agents - having never worked on a game before in my life - and the main thing I learned is that the hard part is designing it to be fun . Coming up with a genuinely interesting gameplay loop with increasing difficulty levels and progressively revealed gameplay mechanics is a fascinating and extremely difficult challenge, no matter how much AI you throw at the problem.

A friend who does game design gave me a good tip -- start with the core game loop first and only focus on that with low poly / representative shapes for game elements that you can refine in the future. Not until the core game loop is fun does it make sense to spend a minute of time on any other aspect of the game.
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