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Your phone is an entire computer

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Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#281

Post by TeMPOraL »

Aurornis wrote: post #108
purplehat_ wrote: post #91

I really don't understand the argument here. That the product is locked down by design is a feature, not a limitation. Yes, this has the side effect of making them more money and allowing a walled garden to form, but given that the vast majority of users wouldn't do anything different with their phones if a shell was present, this is in my opinion not that large of an effect. The snide around "clicking on links is da…

I still remember the era when jailbreaking Android and iPhones was gaining popularity among less technical people. It was eye opening to watch how many people I knew would search for a random web page and then unquestioningly follow instructions on the screen to install software from the first link they clicked. All of this to get custom fonts in their messaging app or some other little feature they saw on someone’s…

> All of this to get custom fonts in their messaging app or some other little feature they saw on someone’s phone.

Yes, and this is normal and right. They're expressing curiosity, and in the process also actually exercising ownership of their devices.

It's how most of us here learned computers, too.

The only problem in this picture, really, is that we've allowed - or even helped - software and platform vendors to disempower regular users so much that "to get custom fonts in their messaging app" they need to do something high-risk.

Most of what regular people try to do is like this anyway - something that should be a basic functionality, that used to be basic functionality, but has been taken away from users for their "safety" or because "sekhurity" or such.

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#282

Post by TeMPOraL »

zozbot234 wrote: post #190
why_at wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>On the other hand, being cryptographically locked-down is an optional feature. If you don't like it, buy a computer without that feature. But that's the thing, where can I buy a phone without a locked-down operating system? GrapheneOS on a Google Pixel is basically the only option right now, and this still has problems thanks to hardware attestation in a lot of apps that the ecosystem forces us to use. This is large…

> hardware attestation in a lot of apps that the ecosystem forces us to use Only a tiny amount of apps force you into hardware attestation, and these are mostly around banking, mobile payments and the like. So just use a separate, locked down device for those (where the anti-fraud protection of a locked-down system can be a benefit) and your more open day-to-day device for mostly everything else. A hidden advantage i…

> Only a tiny amount of apps force you into hardware attestation, and these are mostly around banking, mobile payments and the like.

I.e. the only ones that make the phone critical to daily lives of most poeple. Don't forget to add government applications, multimedia applications (DRM) and communications too.

And that's only going get worse, because every app seems to think they're most important. We're in the middle of the phase where every app tries to force strong MFA on users, despite most apps having no fucking business having this level of security. Banks are actually lagging behind toilet paper roll simulator apps nad stores selling hats for pets and such.

Wait when they're done that, leveraging attestation APIs will be next.

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#283

Post by TeMPOraL »

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #205
WorldPeas wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as someone who did this for a week, it's nice until you need to install an app to check your bank statements or manage your insurance. Maybe that will get better as agents do, however

You don't have a laptop or desktop for those things? Whilst I may not represent the average person, I have no need to check bank statements or manage insurance immediately, so I can wait until I'm at a 'real' computer to do it more conveniently and easily and with a bigger screen and keyboard and mouse. GPs point about the 'relationship with the smart phone' seems to be pertinent. "need to install an app" to do these…

Maybe GP choses to not use it? What about your "relationsip with the PC"?

For me, time I have in front of my PC is quality time I'd rather not waste on bullshit like banking, or worse, rearrange my life to make activities in that quality time that I could've made on the go in the "time holes" during the day.

Fuck apps, alright, but phones are finally getting useful (despite vendors' attempts to undo that). I switched to a foldable phone 6 months ago, and since then I haven't used my personal laptop for anything, not even once. Foldables are what tablets couldn't be, and despite the toy OS, my Fold7 managed to take over ~all tasks I used to do on the laptop or PC, that don't strongly benefit from physical keyboard and sitting stationary (and a good chunk of the latter too, plugged to a screen via USB-C).

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#284

Post by TeMPOraL »

nahkoots wrote: post #271
fleebee wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My bank only has two options for authentication: Either you use their mobile app or buy an authentication device from them that's the size of a small phone. Either way I need a handheld device. I can't say I'm happy with the direction of things. They used to offer slips of paper with single-use codes that worked fine, but those are now deprecated in favor of the smartphone app.

Then your bank is garbage and you should switch to a better one. My main bank (USAA) lets me use a one time code sent to my email as a second factor (or SMS, or a code from their app). If they started requiring me to use the app I would drop them immediately. Why is "but my banking app" treated like a valid objection every time user freedom comes up?

Because it's most banks that are like that. If you don't have this problem, then you're lucky your bank is actually technologically incompetent by industry standards.

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#285

Post by TeMPOraL »

scoofy wrote: post #191
why_at wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>On the other hand, being cryptographically locked-down is an optional feature. If you don't like it, buy a computer without that feature. But that's the thing, where can I buy a phone without a locked-down operating system? GrapheneOS on a Google Pixel is basically the only option right now, and this still has problems thanks to hardware attestation in a lot of apps that the ecosystem forces us to use. This is large…

>Somehow we managed to survive without the majority of society being scammed out of their life savings before Apple came in with the iPhone and locked down iOS What on earth are you talking about? People have been getting scammed since the days of AOL! What an insane perspective. It's not about total money lost from scams. It's about the amount of impact it has on the individuals who get scammed. What's the problem w…

We don't save few people suffering high damage from losing a round of Russian Roulette by restricting ability to roll D6, because of then harm a bad roll can do when in form of a barrel of a loaded revolver. Also "only criminals need random number generators".

Yes that's how we're treating end user computing.

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#286

Post by TeMPOraL »

Retr0id wrote: post #115
purplehat_ wrote: post #91

I really don't understand the argument here. That the product is locked down by design is a feature, not a limitation. Yes, this has the side effect of making them more money and allowing a walled garden to form, but given that the vast majority of users wouldn't do anything different with their phones if a shell was present, this is in my opinion not that large of an effect. The snide around "clicking on links is da…

If you make a bootloader unlock require a full wipe/rekey of the device, and make unlock status visible at boot, most of the "someone might unlock my bootloader maliciously" concerns go away.

Right, but unless you prevent apps from being able to query for this status, the market will still force people into locked phones, because "sekhurity" isn't about actual security, but checking boxes and control.

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#287

Post by TeMPOraL »

idolofdust wrote: post #139
darenr wrote: post #38

I use the Pixel, but the point is the same. Recently Google added the "Dex" like feature where I can plug in the phone to a monitor and use it as my "entire computer" - at first I was excited, I can go to a coffee shop and leave my laptop behind, but then I looked at getting a bluetooth keyboard, mouse, monitor - with battery, and it's now a worse experience. There are monitor/battery/trackpad combination products fo…

I had a similar experience where I tried out a Z Fold 7 with a kickstand and foldable bluetooth keyboard. I was curious about the feasibility of an all-in-one computing experience; it was clunky but surprisingly somewhat productive. Then when confronted with scenarios where I had no stable surfaces I realized why the LAPtop form factor reigns supreme. Peripheral add-ons like the NexDock are very nifty, but at that po…

Try Z Fold 7 with a grip case (one with a rubber band on the back to fasten it to your palm). Grip cases make phones in general much more usable on the go, but with a foldable, it's arguably what makes you feel safe using it for laptop-grade work while walking or without a surface to rest against.

Still not a laptop, but for me it's enough that I haven't used my private laptop since getting the Fold 7 half a year ago. Extreme portability can cover for a lot of other UX problems.

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#288

Post by fsflover »

wolvoleo wrote: post #221

> Now that I know my iPhone has the capacity to run MacOS, I would very much like to do so. I’d love to consider the possibility of switching to a less intrusive phone and repurposing this iPhone into a web server. Perhaps that seems silly, but it’s really not. I’ve already paid for the device, it's clearly a full blown computer, and why should I not be able to modify it as I see fit? I kinda do that with Samsung DeX…

> With Android apps running in little windows (not MS windows). It's amazingly useful, it's a bit like Microsoft's old convergence idea but it actually works.

Can you run ordinary desktop apps though? What is useful about mobile apps designed for a small screen on a big screen? On my phone actual desktop apps (like LibreOffice or desktop Firefox) can be used.

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#289

Post by swiftcoder »

nahkoots wrote: post #271
fleebee wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My bank only has two options for authentication: Either you use their mobile app or buy an authentication device from them that's the size of a small phone. Either way I need a handheld device. I can't say I'm happy with the direction of things. They used to offer slips of paper with single-use codes that worked fine, but those are now deprecated in favor of the smartphone app.

Then your bank is garbage and you should switch to a better one. My main bank (USAA) lets me use a one time code sent to my email as a second factor (or SMS, or a code from their app). If they started requiring me to use the app I would drop them immediately. Why is "but my banking app" treated like a valid objection every time user freedom comes up?

> My main bank lets me use a one time code sent to my email as a second factor or SMS

Congratulations, your bank is still relying on the two most easily spoofed 2fac methods

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#290

Post by figmert »

fsflover wrote: post #288
wolvoleo wrote: post #221

> Now that I know my iPhone has the capacity to run MacOS, I would very much like to do so. I’d love to consider the possibility of switching to a less intrusive phone and repurposing this iPhone into a web server. Perhaps that seems silly, but it’s really not. I’ve already paid for the device, it's clearly a full blown computer, and why should I not be able to modify it as I see fit? I kinda do that with Samsung DeX…

> With Android apps running in little windows (not MS windows). It's amazingly useful, it's a bit like Microsoft's old convergence idea but it actually works. Can you run ordinary desktop apps though? What is useful about mobile apps designed for a small screen on a big screen? On my phone actual desktop apps (like LibreOffice or desktop Firefox) can be used.

One reason I got the Samsung S24 Ultra a couple of years ago is to run a full Linux desktop environment (via Termux), something you really can do. I even say it up, but I struggled to really get into it. Mostly because I banked on Nexdock, but it's trackpad is impossible.

That is to say, yes. And with that you can also run windows applications, e.g. through Winlator.

I was able to run Intellij IDEA, but of course ymmv as the application really has to be available for Android arm64.

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