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Making WebAssembly a first-class language on the Web

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Re: Making WebAssembly a first-class language on the Web

#281

Post by tegmentum »

bfivyvysj wrote: post #165
nineteen999 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technology with "web" in the name, invented by Web fanboys, not really much good for working with key web API's like the DOM. Cool parts of the webassembly technology aside - this should be no surprise to anybody. News at 11. The non-sequitur in the title of this post should be enough to give everybody pause. Waiting for someone to chime in and tell me that the "web" in "webassembly" wasn't meant to refer to the "wor…

Web assembly has never had anything to do with the web. At least that's been my experience whenever I find it in production.

That's were it came from but it's perfectly able to run in environments that don't have anything to do with the web.

Re: Making WebAssembly a first-class language on the Web

#282

Post by troad »

lyu07282 wrote: post #279
troad wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Mozilla is irrelevant, and they don't have a hardware platform where they forbid all other browser engines from it like Apple does. >> If Apple weren't total assholes >> Apple forces all browsers on iOS to use Safari >> you're just another Apple shill. I've still not even mentioned Apple once. You seem extremely fixated on Apple. I'm not aware of any major corporation, group, standards body, or OSS project that wo…

You are missing the initial point here, the accusation is that apple doesn't want the web as a viable platform to develop fully fledged cross platform applications that circumvent its own moat. You just repeat the maximalist position that the web shouldn't "extend the browser so deeply beyond the web". Many people disagree with that, its the best shot we have for true cross platform applications that would force Appl…

> Many people disagree with that, its the best shot we have for true cross platform applications that would force Apple to open their platform, we say the reason apple doesn't want that is for purely profit driven reasons.

And equally, Google wants their platform to replace OSes for purely profit-driven reasons of their own. I'm not saying this as some terrible indictment. They're all corporations, I don't expect anything else from them.

> Also doesn't this argument apply to WebAssembly and other standards (like WebGPU) as well?

This is a fairly consistent strain of criticism on WASM posts here on HN. The death of software as we know it; all of computing as a service, forever.

> Like here is my own reason to support that effort: I use Linux, and there are a ton of proprietary applications that if there were developed on the web platform would become accessible to me.

What makes you think future thin-client 'PC's will even be able to run anything other than a browser shell? The current requirements for Windows/iPhone/Android will just be replaced by a requirement to run an approved, TPM-clad Chromebook, cryptographically certified to be running no software other than Chrome. The ultimate in Secure Boot. But of course this will provide no actual security to end users, in a world where websites can write to your keyboard firmware. Security for corporate IP, maybe.

I genuinely think you're letting your dislike of Apple - on which I hear you, Apple's no angel - cloud your judgment here. The future Google's building is pretty dark.

Re: Making WebAssembly a first-class language on the Web

#283

Post by lyu07282 »

troad wrote: post #282
lyu07282 wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are missing the initial point here, the accusation is that apple doesn't want the web as a viable platform to develop fully fledged cross platform applications that circumvent its own moat. You just repeat the maximalist position that the web shouldn't "extend the browser so deeply beyond the web". Many people disagree with that, its the best shot we have for true cross platform applications that would force Appl…

> Many people disagree with that, its the best shot we have for true cross platform applications that would force Apple to open their platform, we say the reason apple doesn't want that is for purely profit driven reasons. And equally, Google wants their platform to replace OSes for purely profit-driven reasons of their own. I'm not saying this as some terrible indictment. They're all corporations, I don't expect any…

But it feels like a slippery slope argument to me, like how do you go so quickly from standardized web APIs to your ChromeOS/TCPA dystopia? I think that's quite the leap to make, especially considering we already have those locked tight ecosystems right now with iOS, Android, Windows, Mac OS to varying levels of degree anyway. If proprietary applications go that route they would remain unaccessible to me, it wouldn't really change anything. But right now I can use things like figma and countless other apps because it runs on the web, it would otherwise never have been possible.

> in a world where websites can write to your keyboard firmware

again I would never relinquish control over the decision if it "can", I've been using Linux for 20+ years I already go to significant lengths to remain in control over my computing. But the fact that I can develop a cross-platform app that talks to some USB device directly via some standard web API, has benefits that outweigh the costs, that's just pragmatism.

Also if you asked me I would personally rather see Apple, Google, Microsoft and every other orphan crushing machine/publicly traded company shut down and all it's CEOs and shareholders hanging from street lamps, but personal politics aside, I'm only speaking of within the dystopia we already have anyway.

Re: Making WebAssembly a first-class language on the Web

#284

Post by leptons »

troad wrote: post #278
leptons wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Mozilla/Firefox is also deeply opposed to these anti-features. Mozilla is irrelevant, and they don't have a hardware platform where they forbid all other browser engines from it like Apple does. If Apple weren't total assholes and didn't forbid Chrome from actually being Chrome on iOS, then I wouldn't care, I'd simply tell users to install Chrome. But Apple forces all browsers on iOS to use Safari , which they have…

>> Mozilla is irrelevant, and they don't have a hardware platform where they forbid all other browser engines from it like Apple does. >> If Apple weren't total assholes >> Apple forces all browsers on iOS to use Safari >> you're just another Apple shill. I've still not even mentioned Apple once. You seem extremely fixated on Apple. I'm not aware of any major corporation, group, standards body, or OSS project that wo…

> that would agree with Google's attempts

I never mentioned Google. You seem really fixated on Google for some weird reason.

>The general consensus is that it is deeply reckless.

Bullshit, you made that up in your own head. Show some actual statistics instead of making shit up.

>Google failed to get stuff like WebHID into the standard - because everyone thinks it's a terrible idea

So you think you speak for "everyone"? Because you're also making that up.

>When Microsoft did this sort of thing, we used to call them out on it. I

Oh, like when they came out with XMLHTTPRequest and everyone told them to fuck off? That time? Oh, no, they actually didn't tell them to fuck off with their proprietary API, they also all implemented it in their browsers, and now it runs most of all the web.

> I have no idea why you seem so adamant to defend this.

I already spelled this out for you. Apple forbids any other browser on iOS except their own Safari. If they didn't abusively force Safari on all browsers on iOS, I would not have a problem, I would just tell users to install Chrome. But I can't, because Apple is abusive and here you are acting clueless again about what is actually going on.

Re: Making WebAssembly a first-class language on the Web

#285

Post by troad »

lyu07282 wrote: post #283
troad wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many people disagree with that, its the best shot we have for true cross platform applications that would force Apple to open their platform, we say the reason apple doesn't want that is for purely profit driven reasons. And equally, Google wants their platform to replace OSes for purely profit-driven reasons of their own. I'm not saying this as some terrible indictment. They're all corporations, I don't expect any…

But it feels like a slippery slope argument to me, like how do you go so quickly from standardized web APIs to your ChromeOS/TCPA dystopia? I think that's quite the leap to make, especially considering we already have those locked tight ecosystems right now with iOS, Android, Windows, Mac OS to varying levels of degree anyway. If proprietary applications go that route they would remain unaccessible to me, it wouldn't…

I don't think your stated interest in "remain[ing] in control over [your] computing" is at all compatible with the specific moves in tech that you're advocating for.

There's an obvious long-term trend for software to migrate from on-disk to cloud-based: from everything SaaS, through gaming, to Office suites. One common thread with all this software is that you have absolutely no control over it, which is - of course - the aim. No piracy, no unauthorised mods. Walled gardens forever in every direction.

Equally, there's a simultaneous long-term trend for 'attestation', ID checks, 'digital ID' documents, etc. Already, many bank apps refuse to run on Android devices that aren't Google-blessed and kissed. This trend is only accelerating.

In a world where paying taxes online - or accessing a bank account, or running an office suite - requires a Trusted Device™, what good is OSS? What good is software freedom? Running a Linux computer unable to interact with basic aspects of the modern world will quickly become as quaint as trying to do your day job on an Amiga.

Re: Making WebAssembly a first-class language on the Web

#286

Post by gumby271 »

neonstatic wrote: post #260
gumby271 wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The native locked down options are the natives apps you're advocating for, I don't understand. They're the Swift/uikit or Koltin/jetpack apps. It sounds like you don't like web technology in general and would rather everyone do it the centralized Apple/Google way?

Kotlin is not native. And yes, I don't like web technology. That doesn't imply doing it in Company A / B / C way, it implies preference for compiled programs that run natively in their respective environments with full utilization of resources those environments provide, e.g. hardware access, software standards etc.

Sorry I just saw this, if Kotlin isn't native, then what is the "native" way to write android apps?

Re: Making WebAssembly a first-class language on the Web

#287

Post by fzzzy »

pmkary wrote: post #276
fzzzy wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it would be 100% inaccessible.

Basically this has been the only way to stop anything from happening. But major systems all have accessibility like web and if someone wants to support accessibility they will do it there. Those who don't, won't even do it on web. If something like I say happens, not only accessibility will be lost, but so much more will be lost too. But then if you need it you'll either implement it or use web. Figma, SketchUp, and…

Congratulations on being able bodied.
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