Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It’s not a bad word. When used in the negative sense it is, per https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rhetoric "disapproving -> clever language that sounds good but is not sincere or has no real meaning" Are you implying you mean something other than this sense of the word?
Calling your criticism a stretch would be far too charitable. I made it clear what I meant and I’ve got better things to do than nitpick over semantics.
Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]
281–290 of 291 posts
Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]
#282Earlier quoted context omitted.
It was a great video. You're doing interesting work. I've also seen implementations of realistic neurons, spiking models, etc. In software implementations, what combo of libraries and hardware would equal your 200,000 biological neurons in performance (esp training)? How many GPU's are we talking about? (Note: If you haven't already, it might be helpful to publish a stack like that so people can experiment with encod…
Thanks! We focus on using real neurons, I'm not aware of a software based equivalent. But users can `pip install cl-sdk` to get started with our API. The SDK is still early but supports playing back a recording of real data so applications can be built with a realistic spike frequency. (We'll be releasing a set of recordings for this)
The closest thing to real neurons are called spiking, neural networks. Here's a list of libraries for building them on GPU's:
https://github.com/open-neuromorphic/open-neuromorphic
For academic papers, the phrases they use include "biologically plausible," "Hebbian learning," and "backpropagation free." Searching for those with "neural networks" or "neurons" will turn up cutting-edge techniques.
Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]
#283I feel like they probably could use another mammals neural cells and get similar results, but they use human cells because it'll get them attention - and that kind of rubs me the wrong way.
The Doom project is mostly a bit of fun that demonstrates how quickly someone new to the field can see real results with our platform. Our data scientists believe that biological learning was demonstrated in this case.
Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]
#284Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thanks! We focus on using real neurons, I'm not aware of a software based equivalent. But users can `pip install cl-sdk` to get started with our API. The SDK is still early but supports playing back a recording of real data so applications can be built with a realistic spike frequency. (We'll be releasing a set of recordings for this)
Thanks for thr tip. The closest thing to real neurons are called spiking, neural networks. Here's a list of libraries for building them on GPU's: https://github.com/open-neuromorphic/open-neuromorphic For academic papers, the phrases they use include "biologically plausible," "Hebbian learning," and "backpropagation free." Searching for those with "neural networks" or "neurons" will turn up cutting-edge techniques.
Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]
#285Earlier quoted context omitted.
Calling your criticism a stretch would be far too charitable. I made it clear what I meant and I’ve got better things to do than nitpick over semantics.
No you haven't but whatever. I have better things to do that argue with pedants.
Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]
#286Earlier quoted context omitted.
> We know this is only 200,000 neurons. Dogs have 500 million. Humans have billions. But where is the line for sentience, awareness? Have we defined it? If this concern is genuine, I think the first step is to embrace veganism. Because while we don't know the exact offset, it's pretty obvious a dog or a pig reaches it > What are the plans to scale up? I don't know, slavery on an unimaginable scale? That's where AI is…
> the first step is to embrace veganism The past 4 billion years of life for prey animals has been "get born, eat, get eaten by a predator." They have never experienced any other environment. Why do we owe them a different one?
https://www.facebook.com/nhnoticiasmanoelribas/posts/queda-d... 5 days ago, 20k chickens dead in just twenty minutes without power
But power outages don't cause chicken death, at least not directly. The most immediate cause of death is dehydration. And it happens because chickens are kept in an environment so confined, so absurdly cramped, that without giant fans blowing 24/7 they overheat, dehydrate, and very quickly die. (in some cases, the beaks are clamped, too, so they don't peck each other to death)
That's what it takes to have cheap chicken and cheap eggs. That's what happens when we are so detached from animal food production that it becomes a commodity. It doesn't matter how much the animal suffer, as long as the consumer can ignore it safely when they eat. And the reason this can happen is that animal well being isn't worth much. (veganism is just the position that animal well being is worth a lot. It isn't merely a diet choice and has far reaching implications. For example, if you are vegan you ought to be against the destruction of natural habitats, fossil fuels, etc)
Btw this "environment" I described where chickens are raised in hell doesn't look a lot like the natural environments the chickens and other dinosaurs evolved in during millions of years
Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]
#287Earlier quoted context omitted.
> We know this is only 200,000 neurons. Dogs have 500 million. Humans have billions. But where is the line for sentience, awareness? Have we defined it? If this concern is genuine, I think the first step is to embrace veganism. Because while we don't know the exact offset, it's pretty obvious a dog or a pig reaches it > What are the plans to scale up? I don't know, slavery on an unimaginable scale? That's where AI is…
Surely you can imagine that there are people who draw their ethical line for permissible suffering with animal farming on the "permissible" side and "slavery on an unimaginable scale" on the "not permissible" side? Imagine you or someone you love duplicated 5 million times and living through 1000 subjective years of pure existential horror (while doing menial industrial cognitive tasks). Some would say this is worse…
Somehow many people are ready to ascribe personhood and have ethical considerations towards computer programs and other digital entities, while not being much concerned about the suffering of animals that actually exist today in the physical world
Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]
#288Earlier quoted context omitted.
No you haven't but whatever. I have better things to do that argue with pedants.
Jeez. It’s not every day you get called a pedant by someone that wants to pick apart your usage of one word.
Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]
#289Earlier quoted context omitted.
For the same reason that we now consider murder, assault and other actions that harm people morally wrong. These have also been a part of life ever since humans or other hominids roamed the earth, we just determined that they are morally wrong later on.
Oh? Are you going to do a citizen's arrest on a wolf for traumatically murdering a deer, thereby violating its right to avoid cruel and unusual punishment?
On the contrary, not only wolves can't be found guilty of murder, they aren't required to pay taxes too.
Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]
#290Earlier quoted context omitted.
Surely you can imagine that there are people who draw their ethical line for permissible suffering with animal farming on the "permissible" side and "slavery on an unimaginable scale" on the "not permissible" side? Imagine you or someone you love duplicated 5 million times and living through 1000 subjective years of pure existential horror (while doing menial industrial cognitive tasks). Some would say this is worse…
The duplicated people is imaginary and hypothetical, happening (or not) in an unspecified time in future; the suffering in animal farming is real and happens today. Somehow many people are ready to ascribe personhood and have ethical considerations towards computer programs and other digital entities, while not being much concerned about the suffering of animals that actually exist today in the physical world
Anyway to reiterate my point upthread, there could be people who think a chicken-level entity suffering is permissible, and a human-level entity suffering is not, and it is a perfectly consistent moral position for them to say we should not do research into creating new kinds of human-level entities with the potential for suffering. The permissible suffering being in the present and the impermissible suffering being in the future does not really change that.
PS in this thread we were not only talking about computer programs, but artificial brains made from biological human neurons too.