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Ministry of Justice orders deletion of the UK's largest court reporting database

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Re: Ministry of Justice orders deletion of the UK's largest court reporting database

#281

Post by __MatrixMan__ »

londons_explore wrote: post #6

Something is either public record - in which case it should be on a government website for free, and the AI companies should be free to scrape to their hearts desire... Or it should be sealed for X years and then public record. Where X might be 1 in cases where you don't want to hurt an ongoing investigation, or 100 if it's someone's private affairs. Nothing that goes through the courts should be sealed forever. We s…

This is a good use case for a blockchain. AI companies can run their own nodes so they're not bashing infra that they don't pay for. Concerned citizens can run their own nodes so they know that the government isn't involved in any 1984-type shenanigans. In the sealed-for-X-years case, the government can publish a hash of the blocks that they intend to publish in X years so that when the time comes, people can prove that nobody tampered with the data in the interim.

The government can decide to stop paying for the infra, but the only way to delete something that was once public record should be for all interested parties to also stop their nodes.

Re: Ministry of Justice orders deletion of the UK's largest court reporting database

#282

Post by iso1631 »

neallindsay wrote: post #195
andsoitis wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not expunged or removed from record, just removed from any decision making. This made me pause. It seems to me that if something is not meant to inform decision making, then why does a record of it need to persist?

If someone is charged with and found innocent of a crime, you can't just remove that record. If someone else later finds an account of them being accused, they need a way to credibly assert that they were found innocent. Alternately if they are convicted and served their sentence, they might need to prove that in the future. Sometimes people are unfairly ostracized for their past, but I think a policy of deleting rec…

Nobody is found innocent in UK courts.

You are found Guilty or confirmed you continue to be Not Guilty.

In Scotland there was also the verdict "not proven" but that's no longer the case for new trials

Re: Ministry of Justice orders deletion of the UK's largest court reporting database

#283

Post by iso1631 »

fao_ wrote: post #220
reactordev wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>”Free to ingest and make someones crimes a permanent part of AI datasets resulting in forever-convictions? No thanks.” 1000x this. It’s one thing to have a felony for manslaughter. It’s another to have a felony for drug possession. In either case, if enough time has passed, and they have shown that they are reformed (long employment, life events, etc) then I think it should be removed from consideration. Not expunge…

> There needs to be a statute of limitations just like there is for reporting the crimes. The UK does not have a statute of limitations

The UK has multiple legal systems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limitation_Act_1980

Applies to England and Wales, I believe there are similar ones for Scotland and NI

Re: Ministry of Justice orders deletion of the UK's largest court reporting database

#284

Post by lazyasciiart »

charcircuit wrote: post #259
vimda wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this a weird take. Are you saying you _want_ unaccountable and profit driven third party companies to become quasi-judicial arbiters of justice?

I am saying that it is not good if you had to hide information about yourself in order to get hired. Justice is provided by the courts.

So you’re all for photos on job applications then? That’s information about you.

Re: Ministry of Justice orders deletion of the UK's largest court reporting database

#285

Post by whizzter »

bko wrote: post #37
whizzter wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open to research yes. Free to ingest and make someones crimes a permanent part of AI datasets resulting in forever-convictions? No thanks. AI firms have shown themselves to be playing fast and loose with copyrighted works, a teenager shouldn't have their permanent AI profile become "shoplifter" because they did a crime at 15 yo that would otherwise have been expunged after a few years.

Im sorry but that's the equivalent of "I believe in free speech but not the right to hate speech". Its either free or not

Actually it isn't the same.

We can allow access to private persons while disallowing commercial usage and forbid data processing of private information (outside of law enforcement access).

Kinda like it was in pre-digital days, no we can't go back but we can at least _try_ to make PII information safeguarded.

Most EU countries have digital ID's, restricting and logging (for a limited time) all access to records to prevent mis-use. Anyone caught trying to scrape can be restricted without limiting people from accessing or searching for specific _records or persons of interest_ (seriously, would anyone have time to read more than a couple of records each day?).

Re: Ministry of Justice orders deletion of the UK's largest court reporting database

#286

Post by __turbobrew__ »

charcircuit wrote: post #249
reactordev wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>”Free to ingest and make someones crimes a permanent part of AI datasets resulting in forever-convictions? No thanks.” 1000x this. It’s one thing to have a felony for manslaughter. It’s another to have a felony for drug possession. In either case, if enough time has passed, and they have shown that they are reformed (long employment, life events, etc) then I think it should be removed from consideration. Not expunge…

The AI should decide if it's still relevant or not. People should fully understand that their actions reflect their character and this should influence them to always do the right thing.

> The AI should decide

That is a great recipe for systematic discrimination.

Re: Ministry of Justice orders deletion of the UK's largest court reporting database

#287

Post by whizzter »

carlosjobim wrote: post #40
whizzter wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open to research yes. Free to ingest and make someones crimes a permanent part of AI datasets resulting in forever-convictions? No thanks. AI firms have shown themselves to be playing fast and loose with copyrighted works, a teenager shouldn't have their permanent AI profile become "shoplifter" because they did a crime at 15 yo that would otherwise have been expunged after a few years.

No, public doesn't mean access should be limited to academics of acceptable political alignment, it means open to the public: everybody. That is the entire point of having courts, since the time of Hammurabi. Otherwise it's back to the clan system, where justice is made by avenging blood. Making and using any "profiles" of people is an entirely different thing than having court rulings accessible to the public.

Exactly, public means to the _public_, just because it's persons of the public doesn't mean that corporations are entitled to be able to use or profit from that material.

Re: Ministry of Justice orders deletion of the UK's largest court reporting database

#288

Post by mrguyorama »

carlosjobim wrote: post #116
pjc50 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of Rotherham, I believe that most of those committing the crimes were not foreign; most were British born British nationals. Ethnicity is not the same as immigration status.

The question is: Would the crimes have been covered up by authorities if the predators were ethnically English and the victims were children of foreigners?

They covered up Jimmy Savile

Re: Ministry of Justice orders deletion of the UK's largest court reporting database

#289

Post by Brian_K_White »

bko wrote: post #155
reactordev wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>”Free to ingest and make someones crimes a permanent part of AI datasets resulting in forever-convictions? No thanks.” 1000x this. It’s one thing to have a felony for manslaughter. It’s another to have a felony for drug possession. In either case, if enough time has passed, and they have shown that they are reformed (long employment, life events, etc) then I think it should be removed from consideration. Not expunge…

> I think it should be removed from consideration. Not expunged or removed from record, just removed from any decision making. The timeline for this can be based on severity with things like rape and murder never expiring from consideration. That's up to the person for the particular role. Imagine hiring a nanny and some bureaucrat telling you what prior arrest is "relevant". No thanks. I'll make that call myself.

Then before I give you my business or hire you, I also want to know that you are the kind of person that thinks they have a right to any other person's entire life, so I can hold it against you and prevent you from benefitting from all your other possible virtues and afforts.

So I likewise, require to know everything about you, including things that are none of my business but I just think they are my business and that's what matters. I'll make that call myself.

Re: Ministry of Justice orders deletion of the UK's largest court reporting database

#290

Post by criddell »

dirasieb wrote: post #260
JadeNB wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a parent, I would want to know everything about anyone who's going to be around my children in any capacity. That doesn't mean I have a right to it, though.

>openly admits his beliefs results in parents not making good decisions on who to allow near their children, keeps going anyway great moral system you have there

That's a bad faith take.

In one comment you managed to violate a whole bunch of the HN commenting guidelines.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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