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Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

ziglang.org

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Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#281

Post by pjmlp »

hu3 wrote: post #266
pjmlp wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, if I am an evangelist of anything, it is about safe systems programming with automatic resource management languages, if I had a magic wand, we would be talking about languages like D and AOT C#, not Rust. Secondly, let us know when Amazon rewrites Firecracker in Zig, Android replaces Rust with Zig, or Mark Russinovich goes to some Zig conference explaining why Azure is dropping Rust for Zig, "Mark Russ…

Great clickbait title for a Rust conference. But in the video he says they are starting with critical systems first. Emphasis on starting. So yeah, not as pervasive as you, the evangelists or that video title implies.

You could have checked his conference talk as well, instead of downplaying the interview.

"Microsoft is Getting Rusty: A Review of Successes and Challenges - Mark Russinovich"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VgptLwP588&t=1903s

The only Microsoft divisions that are still all are into C++ is Windows and XBox, and still, C++/WinRT is now in maintenace, the team has moved into windows-rs, WDK now has Rust bindings available.

Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#283

Post by pjmlp »

Quothling wrote: post #257
pjmlp wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess C++ teams at Microsoft, Google, IBM, Adobe don't count.

Not if you want a job near the town in Denmark where I live.

Does any of them offer C++ positions near that town?

Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#284

Post by dragonelite »

LexiMax wrote: post #187
wolvesechoes wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of the four choices, Zig today is already simplest to learn, Yes, with almost complete lack of documentation and learning materials it is definitely the easiest language to learn.

For reference, here's where Zig's documentation lives: https://ziglang.org/learn/ I remember when learning Zig, the documentation for the language itself was extensive, complete, and easily greppable due to being all on one page. The standard library was a lot less intuitive, but I suspect that has more to do with the amount of churn it's still going through. The build system also needs more extensive documentation i…

People do under estimate how nice it is that the language ref or framework/tool documentation is all on one web page i can easily pdf print it and push it to my ipad for reading.

Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#285

Post by kibwen »

wolvesechoes wrote: post #248
kibwen wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Very much so once you compare it to how quickly C++ (and, in fact, any language that's ever been in the top 5 or so) achieved similar milestones. No, this completely overestimates how quickly languages gain prominence. C came out in 1972 and didn't gain its current dominance until approximately the release of the ANSI C spec in 1989/1990, after 17 years. C++ came out in 1985 and didn't become the dominant language…

These languages have origin in a different era, without Reddit, Twitter or HN to spam about them, do we cannot really compare adoption rates.

No, this is silly. You can look at the availability and maturity of toolchains, the rate of release of projects written in that language, the rate of release of books and learning materials, the rate at which universities begin teaching the language, the volume of discourse devoted to that language in magazines and the online venues which did exist (e.g. Usenet), and crucially the declining metrics of all of the above for the direct competitors of that language.

Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#286

Post by audunw »

lukaslalinsky wrote: post #68

I don't want to be the negative guy, but this is news about two unfinished implementations. There is a lot of work needed for this to be considered done. For example, no networking in the GCD version yet. And as these are being implemented, the interface stops being an interface, the vtable keeps growing, and it's just the current snapshot of what's needed by the std implementations.

I think another way of thinking about this interface is: it’s kind of like an abstraction over Linux system calls and ntdll. It’s naturally gonna have a kind of subset of all the useful calls, with some wrapping.

I don’t see anything wrong with this, it’s kind of how Windows forces developers to use DLL to access syscalls (the syscall numbers can change) which IMO is a good architectural decision.

Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#287

Post by audunw »

hxtk wrote: post #97
jauntywundrkind wrote: post #66

Contrary to the neggies, I am positive in Zigs effort to iterate & improve. Right now there is no language that is good at io-uring. There are ok offerings, but nothing really has modern async joy that works with uring. Whoever hammers out a good solution here is going to have a massive leg up. Rust is amazing in so many ways but it has been quite a brutal road to trying to support io-uring ok, and efforts are still…

It’s surprising to me how much people seem to want async in low level languages. Async is very nice in Go, but the reason I reach for a language like Zig is to explicitly control those things. I’m happily writing a Zig project right now using libxev as my io_uring abstraction.

There’s two things I think a low level language should have:

1. Standardise on a sync/async agnostic IO interface (or something similar) so you don’t get fragmentation in the ecosystem.

2. Stackless coroutines. Should give the most efficient async io code, and efficient code is one of the reasons I want to use low level language

Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#288

Post by kibwen »

pron wrote: post #264
kibwen wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Very much so once you compare it to how quickly C++ (and, in fact, any language that's ever been in the top 5 or so) achieved similar milestones. No, this completely overestimates how quickly languages gain prominence. C came out in 1972 and didn't gain its current dominance until approximately the release of the ANSI C spec in 1989/1990, after 17 years. C++ came out in 1985 and didn't become the dominant language…

> C came out in 1972 and didn't gain its current dominance until approximately the release of the ANSI C spec in 1989/1990 While it kept growing in popularity later, by 1983-5 C was already one of the top programming langugages in the world. > C++ came out in 1985 and didn't become the dominant language for gamedev until the late 90s Major parts of Windows and Office were being written in C++ in the early-mid 90s, be…

> Major parts of Windows and Office were being written in C++ in the early-mid 90s, before C++ turned 10.

Major parts of Windows, Android, and Linux were being written in Rust before it turned 10. Major parts of AWS were being written in Rust before it turned 4. Major parts of Dropbox were being written in Rust before it turned 1. So you agree by your own criteria that Rust is a major language?

> While it kept growing in popularity later, by 1983-5 C was already one of the top programming langugages in the world.

In the mid-80s, C still had plenty of major and healthy competitors, as pjmlp will imminently arrive to remind you. By the criteria of mid-80s C, Rust is already one of the top programming languages in the world.

> AJAX (popularised by Gmail) pretty much revolutionised the web in 2004. When jQuery came out in 2006, JS was all over the place.

No, despite the existence and availability of freestanding interpreters (e.g. Rhino), Javascript was an also-ran everywhere except the web; which is to say, nobody was choosing to use Javascript except the people forced at gunpoint to use it. There are infinitely more people choosing to use Rust at the age of 11 than were choosing to use Javascript at the age of 11, which means that, once again, by your criteria, you must consider Rust a major language. You can just admit it instead of being a tsundere.

Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#289

Post by junon »

cv5005 wrote: post #247
junon wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rust will also never replace C or C++ in any meaningful way Not only do I disagree it never will, I think it's already well on its way to doing exactly that.

Is it? rust has to ditch llvm to be able to replace c++ - or rewrite llvm in rust.

https://github.com/rust-lang/rustc_codegen_cranelift

Re: Zig – io_uring and Grand Central Dispatch std.Io implementations landed

#290

Post by Quothling »

pjmlp wrote: post #283
Quothling wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if you want a job near the town in Denmark where I live.

Does any of them offer C++ positions near that town?

Microsoft and IBM don't. Then they don't really post jobs for their own stuff. It's mainly to sell consultant services like selling Mainframe SWE's service to banks. If you mean jobs in my area in general then there are a lot of places that offer C++ jobs.
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