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Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study

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Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study

#281

Post by raverbashing »

memen wrote: post #273
princevegeta89 wrote: post #3

No surprises. No matter how we look at it, EVs are much friendlier and safer to the environment. Some people argue the source of electricty can be contested against because that involves fossil fuel burning again, but in today's world we are rapidly moving away from it and towards nuclear/hydel/wind methods for generating power. I hope ICE cars completely become a thing of the past in the next couple of decades to co…

Is that true? EV have much higher emissions of micro plastics and pfas (or variations thereof) due to increased tier degradation. EVs are typically way heavier than similar ICE due to the batteries and combined with the higher torques, tires wear faster.

It is amazing the amount of bs and grasping at straws that the oil company will push to keep their amazing polluting stuff going on

No I'm sure fracking and pipelines and all the crap the oil industry needs just to exist does not have any pfas or micro plastics

Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study

#282

Post by dijit »

ako wrote: post #274
dijit wrote: post #256

The real scandal isn’t just battery degradation… it’s that manufacturers have zero incentive to solve it. Your car becoming worthless after a decade suits them down to the ground. Battery swapping changes the game entirely. Imagine a national network of exchange stations (co-located with existing petrol infrastructure, you can use the overhead canopy for solar). Standard pack sizes scaled by vehicle class: compact ca…

So you don't think the free market will force manufactures to compete on better batteries? I always thought the benefit of the free market was that it forced companies to compete on product quality... /s

To be honest with you, the free market does work when incentives are aligned.

If you get maximum profit from the maximum social good, people will do that (or find a way to cheat); but as it stands, theres money to be made in not doing this and the consumer won’t care too much if its 9 years or 10 years that their car lasts, so its not hurting sales to not fix this (even if fixed perfectly, it would take 10 years to prove after all!).

I think I’m dreaming, the investment would have to be enormous, who wants to hold stock of so many batteries? Who will convince manufacturers to integrate standardised batter packs instead of the more profitable “built-in phone style” that is used today, and the automotive marketing machine is really strong and will (correctly) lean on the idea that by having the battery replaceable would require less rigid car bodies, so their current incentive would be to fight this initiative and they would probably lead with the safety angle.

The anti-EV propaganda already works pretty well with the very little it has to work with (farming batteries is harmful), so, imagine what they could do with something of actual substance.

Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study

#283

Post by ZeroGravitas »

Slothrop99 wrote: post #254
dangus wrote: post #145

Something that needs to be pointed out, especially for those who want to push back against findings like this and essentially defend ICE vehicles: Really step back and imagine a world where the modern EV [1] was first to market and a gasoline combustion engine was second . Who would actually decide to switch from a modern EV to gasoline on purpose of their own choice? The downsides of gasoline cars are actually prett…

> Baker Electric type of stuff In the 1920s, a lot of auto startups had a unique idea. Then they got crushed by Henry Ford's and GM's production lines. And then the depression. The Model T was a farm car. 50% of the population lived in rural areas, and they didn't have electricity. There was a market for an urban electric short-range car, it just didn't hit the economy of scale at the right time. But not because it w…

His wife Clara Ford drove an EV until the 1930s.

https://www.thehenryford.org/collections-and-research/digita...

Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study

#284

Post by littlecranky67 »

mtoner23 wrote: post #277
littlecranky67 wrote: post #258

I love EVs, ever since I test drove an BMW i3 in 2012. Quiet with high drag - of course this is the future. BUT I don't think switching to EVs will help reduce CO2 in any way - not even if all the EVs are charged using 100% solar/wind. The narrative usually is "I get an EV instead of an ICE, charge it with regenerative energy and have 0 emissions, thus not burning oil and saving on CO2". But that is not how a globali…

Reduced demand for oil reduces the quantity of oil extracted and purduced. The price drops and hardwr to extract oil stops being produced

> Reduced demand for oil reduces the quantity of oil extracted

That is not true. Reduced price leads to higher demand. This is economics 101.

> The price drops and hardware to extract oil stops being produced

Oil extraction costs differ vastly amongst countries, and there is a lot of potential for increased productivity and efficencies when the margins become lower - price pressure is a driver for innovation. And countries like Saudi Arabia and Russia have a very high incentive to keep extracting oil and sell it, because their economy relies on it.

Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study

#285

Post by jodrellblank »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #228
MBCook wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of ICE cars I get stuck behind from time to time that just REEK is amazing. I’m in a decently well off area too. Some putting off soot clouds, white smoke, nothing visible but clearly not doing complete combustion. Sometimes I wonder if half the cylinders are even working. I’ve heard one car like that is the equivalent of a surprisingly large number of modern ICE cars is in good shape. I love EVs. I’ve had…

> get stuck behind from time to time that just REEK is amazing It’s crazy. How do we even allow selling cars without HEPA filters.

We love privatising the benefits and socialising the harms of everything.

If the exhaust had to go through the cabin so the driver got the worst of it, car exhaust would be the cleanest air on the planet within months and/or alternatives to cars would rocket.

But as long as it’s other peoples health affected, meh.

Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study

#286

Post by IrishTechie »

dijit wrote: post #256

The real scandal isn’t just battery degradation… it’s that manufacturers have zero incentive to solve it. Your car becoming worthless after a decade suits them down to the ground. Battery swapping changes the game entirely. Imagine a national network of exchange stations (co-located with existing petrol infrastructure, you can use the overhead canopy for solar). Standard pack sizes scaled by vehicle class: compact ca…

I get what you’re saying but I think it misses that battery longevity can be a competitive advantage for the companies with better technology.

The Nissan Leaf 15 years ago came with a 5-year/100,000km battery warranty, now Toyota are at 10-year/1,000,000km.

Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study

#287

Post by montalbano »

lagniappe wrote: post #97

I want the future to focus more on the brakes and tire dust, and the increase in cancers and other problems by people who live near busy roads or highways experience. Nobody studies this, and combustion or battery, everyone is affected by it. Even playgrounds are filled with shredded tires, which borders on biohazard.

>> Nobody studies this

Tire dust has been studied for decades and the most recent research I've seen suggests the issues are less concerning than previously estimated.

https://www.ch.cam.ac.uk/news/illusion-truth-surrounds-inacc...

Brake dust is significantly reduced by EVs:

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/running/do-electri...

Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study

#288

Post by ninalanyon »

omoikane wrote: post #80
princevegeta89 wrote: post #3

No surprises. No matter how we look at it, EVs are much friendlier and safer to the environment. Some people argue the source of electricty can be contested against because that involves fossil fuel burning again, but in today's world we are rapidly moving away from it and towards nuclear/hydel/wind methods for generating power. I hope ICE cars completely become a thing of the past in the next couple of decades to co…

The surprising part to me is that there are now enough EVs to make a measurable difference, since I kept thinking they are still relatively rare. The linked study has this piece of data: From 2019 to 2023, ZEVs increased from 2.0% (559943 of 28237734) to 5.1% (1460818 of 28498496). So 1 out of 20 cars in California is an EV.

Between 1 in 4 and 1 in 3 in Norway.

Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study

#289

Post by dijit »

IrishTechie wrote: post #286
dijit wrote: post #256

The real scandal isn’t just battery degradation… it’s that manufacturers have zero incentive to solve it. Your car becoming worthless after a decade suits them down to the ground. Battery swapping changes the game entirely. Imagine a national network of exchange stations (co-located with existing petrol infrastructure, you can use the overhead canopy for solar). Standard pack sizes scaled by vehicle class: compact ca…

I get what you’re saying but I think it misses that battery longevity can be a competitive advantage for the companies with better technology. The Nissan Leaf 15 years ago came with a 5-year/100,000km battery warranty, now Toyota are at 10-year/1,000,000km.

You’d be proving me wrong with this fact if the data showed that they’re moving more units because of this marketing.

As it stands the Nissan Leaf is an outlier only in Norway, where it was practically a free car due to subsidies, otherwise their growth is pretty much in line with other EVs.

Re: Adoption of EVs tied to real-world reductions in air pollution: study

#290

Post by amrocha »

memen wrote: post #255
lukan wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, any cyclist daring to drive in winter can easily confirm this. It is so disgusting (and unhealthy) having to stand behind a ICE car on a traffic light and being behind a electric car is such a relief, that thoughts of wishing to ban all ICE cars as soon as possible (at least in cities) come automatically.

Modern ICE cars have auto start/stop systems, so on a traffic light it has as much exhaust as an EV.

But not every car on the road is modern, and it smells like crap as a result
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