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Replacing JavaScript with Just HTML

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Re: Replacing JavaScript with Just HTML

#281

Post by tapirl »

tapirl wrote: post #273
jakelazaroff wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a non-exhaustive list of issues you'll run into with various pure HTML and CSS implementations: - Tabs should have an ARIA "tab" role [1], but doesn't accept roles [2]. - Focusing a tab must activate the corresponding tab panel [3], which requires JavaScript. - Tabs should be navigable by arrow keys [4], which also requires JavaScript. I want to be clear that I'm not trying to tear down your work. Your projec…

> Tabs should be navigable by arrow keys [4], which also requires JavaScript. It supports this now (with JavaScript). If not, try to refresh the page.

typo: s/with/without/

Re: Replacing JavaScript with Just HTML

#282

Post by 6510 »

wartijn_ wrote: post #193
6510 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

different things with the same name? O_O

It’s the name of the accordion and matches how radio buttons work. If you want to distinguish them, you’ll give them different ids.

I understand it, just wondering if it is good taste.

On a different note, trying to use an accordion this simplistic is quite terrible.

https://jsfiddle.net/8m0t5af6/

Or this?

https://jsfiddle.net/8m0t5af6/1/

Not very nice.

Re: Replacing JavaScript with Just HTML

#283

Post by alwillis »

hollowturtle wrote: post #274
alwillis wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know for sure that Apple, who has an important seat on the standard committee, holded back innovation for so long, it's not a matter of finding or not finding solutions. They're failing us for different interests Apple isn't the problem. Apple was the first to ship :has(), which developers wanted for 20 years but was thought to be essentially impossible to implement [1]. Apple pushed to get consensus on how to im…

Oh please they pushed back pwas for "security reasons" for years. Safari is the browser with most quirks compared to FF and Chrome, it's considered by many the new IE holding back innovation. Sure they implemented some stuff before other who cares of changes that don't disrupt their apple store model? I don't want mansonry layout if not for designers portfolio or blog? I develop serious appa and I want an api to inve…

> Safari is the browser with most quirks compared to FF and Chrome

That may have been true 5 years ago and I get developers have long memories—but that's no longer the case.

> Sure they implemented some stuff before other who cares of changes that don't disrupt their apple store model?

The conspiracy theory Apple, whose revenue was $391 billion last fiscal year sees PWAs as a "threat" is nonsensical. Also, new features for the web platform gives developers another reason to create web apps instead of a native app.

In reality, Safari's PWA support is really good; it has implemented 89% of supported PWA features vs 96% for Chrome according to the PWA scorecard [1].

> It's considered by many the new IE holding back innovation

As someone who lived through the '90s and early 2000s doing web stuff, I can assure you anyone who believes "Safari is the new IE" literally has no idea what they're talking about; they're just repeating a meme they don't understand.

I commented about this on HN recently [2].

[1]: https://pwascore.com

[2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46338575

Re: Replacing JavaScript with Just HTML

#284

Post by lelandfe »

cardamomo wrote: post #236
lelandfe wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trying to figure things out in a game is fun! Trying to figure things out on a website is a sign the UI sucks.

Learn it in a game, then use it on a website. It's a UI convention, not merely a quirk to a multi-select list.

Modifier keys are used elsewhere optionally on operating systems. But no other form control demands knowledge of modifier clicks. It's simply a useless bit of UI and should not be used.

Re: Replacing JavaScript with Just HTML

#285

Post by emseetech »

abustamam wrote: post #206
emseetech wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, don't add complexity until you have to.

I'd argue that adding complexity from the get-go to ensure that all users have a pleasant experience from the get-go is better than simplicity at the expense of some percentage of users. I think it's important for web devs to spend more than two seconds to think if the complexity is necessary from the get-go though.

When building out a new app or site, which means a percentage of zero users is zero.

Re: Replacing JavaScript with Just HTML

#286

Post by seec »

echelon wrote: post #256
wvenable wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We've gotten so far away from semantic documents so we could build "apps". Exactly. We're still pretending that the browser is some kind of document display application when it's an application runtime. We keep adding more HTML tags and infinite number of CSS properties and features (that never get it right) when what we should have as a better application GUI API. Throw all the hardware acceleration and threading…

It sounds like you want a game engine. I want a hypertext document viewer. > @starting-style, transition-behavior: allow-discrete, interpolate-size: allow-keywords and ::details-content This is sane from a declarative document styling syntax.

In my opinion the problem is the lack of good GUI editing apps for purely HTML documents and no standard for self-contained HTML docs (that would bundle all the ressources into a single clickable file).

Word for the web basically, but with support for multimedia.

In that sense the web has failed, there is epub but it's not really good.

Re: Replacing JavaScript with Just HTML

#287

Post by 6510 »

alwillis wrote: post #283
hollowturtle wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please they pushed back pwas for "security reasons" for years. Safari is the browser with most quirks compared to FF and Chrome, it's considered by many the new IE holding back innovation. Sure they implemented some stuff before other who cares of changes that don't disrupt their apple store model? I don't want mansonry layout if not for designers portfolio or blog? I develop serious appa and I want an api to inve…

> Safari is the browser with most quirks compared to FF and Chrome That may have been true 5 years ago and I get developers have long memories—but that's no longer the case. > Sure they implemented some stuff before other who cares of changes that don't disrupt their apple store model? The conspiracy theory Apple, whose revenue was $391 billion last fiscal year sees PWAs as a "threat" is nonsensical. Also, new featur…

> In reality, Safari's PWA support is really good; it has implemented 89% of supported PWA features vs 96% for Chrome according to the PWA scorecard [1].

I remember, I was like, ohh sounds great! So I tirelessly looked for an "add to home screen" button but couldn't find it.

I had to search google to find the answer, you hve to share it!?

weird but okay, so I open the share menu. No such option there.

Again I search, ahh so you have to first edit the sharing options!

The only thing missing from the experience was a warning dialog.

Moral of the story, it doesn't matter if it works if people cant find it.

The 3rd class experience was funny but then they announced they were going to get rid of pwa's entirely.

> The need to remove the capability was informed by the complex security and privacy concerns...

When a 4T company says such things you know it must be hard.... lmfao....

I've never had to explain to an android user how to "Add to home screen". Explaining it to iphone users honestly sounded like I was trying to hack them. It drifts so far from apples usually polished UI that I cant blame them.

Re: Replacing JavaScript with Just HTML

#288

Post by petit_robert »

busymom0 wrote: post #84

I really try not using JavaScript unless absolutely needed. On my latest project, the whole site actually functions without JavaScript and is server side rendered. However, there's some small piece which I really needed JavaScript for couple reasons. Basically, I have a site which collects the top STEAMD posts from places like HN, lobsters, tildes, slashdot, bear, reddit etc and displays them in chronological order.…

Interesting. Nice way to get headers quickly, I'll have a look.

Fun project I'm sure, but out of curiosity, is this something that you can monetize somehow? because the fun only goes so far.

Re: Replacing JavaScript with Just HTML

#289

Post by econ »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #189
port11 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The major issue with this is that modern CSS is almost its own job, to the point we used to have Interface Developers at some place I’ve worked (HTML+CSS specialists). I did frontend for over a decade and eventually lost the train on CSS changes, I don’t even know what’s going on there anymore. It’s still awesome, but it’s becoming increasingly silly to ask someone to know modern HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Typescript, so…

When I started dabbling in web development, writing HTML and CSS was already its own job, and professional JavaScript developers basically did not exist. This was before TypeScript, before Node, before Ajax, before React or even jQuery. If anything has exploded in complexity in the intervening years, it's the JavaScript part of the equation. I agree that it's increasingly silly to ask someone to be an expert in all o…

I'm an expert -> just write everything in static html, use css only where defaults are neglected. After relevant tables in the db are updated generate a new static document. Only if that won't fly use json but feel appropriately dirty when you do.

Re: Replacing JavaScript with Just HTML

#290

Post by econ »

yurishimo wrote: post #103
wvenable wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't see how a bunch of esoteric incantations are better than just some straight-forward easy to understand and follow JavaScript.

Because you need 20x the JS to do the same thing and it’s still not hardware accelerated. These new CSS properties are well supported and will only get better.

   click
   loris
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