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Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

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Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#281

Post by markdown »

dmix wrote: post #213
wiml wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already have a solution, it's written down in the traffic laws. If the signals fail, treat the intersection roughly like a four-way stop. Everybody learns this in drivers' ed. It's not obscure. If the cars can't follow traffic rules maybe they're not ready to be on the streets unsupervised.

That may be the rules for humans, particuarly people who are always in a rush and won't stay still anyway. With a major intersection turned four-way stop you have lots of humans making very complex decisions and taking a lot of personal risk. If multiple self driving cars make the choice at the wrong time you could jam up an intersection and create a worse traffic issue, or kill a passenger. It's all a careful risk c…

> If multiple self driving cars make the choice at the wrong time

Would would they do that? It's a hive, isn't it?

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#283

Post by khuey »

markus_zhang wrote: post #267
cjsplat wrote: post #193

I was driving across the east side of SF and hit a patch of lights that were out. The Waymo's were just going really slow through the intersection. It seemed that the "light is out means 4-way stop" dynamic caused them to go into ultra-timid mode. And of course the human drivers did the typical slow and roll, with decent interleaving. The result was that each Waymo took about 4x as long to get through the intersectio…

I’m curious what’s the regulation in this scenario? In Canada I think light off means 4-way stop signs so everyone obeys that, or at least most of everyone. What’s the situation in SF?

Legally in the United States a completely dead traffic signal becomes an all way stop.

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#285

Post by lo_zamoyski »

themafia wrote: post #175
MBCook wrote: post #93

From John Ripley on Mastodon: “Thought of the day, and I wish there were a way to get this to legislators: Come the next Big One earthquake, all of San Francisco’s emergency services will be blocked by Waymos.” I’m AMAZED they’re not designed to handle this better. This does indeed seem like a massive problem. “Oops we give up” right when things get the worst? How is this OK? I’ve been very impressed by Waymo’s more…

> Perhaps they haven’t fully thought through the ramifications of it though. There is a chorus of voices here on HN that have tried to do this openly, obviously, myself included. It seems to be almost universally derided by people who apparently assume that we're just trying to hurt a start up out of anti-environmental sentiment and jealousy. There are more ways to get "self-driving cars" wrong than there are to get…

Willfulness.

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#286

Post by dragonwriter »

dmix wrote: post #186
themafia wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps they haven’t fully thought through the ramifications of it though. There is a chorus of voices here on HN that have tried to do this openly, obviously, myself included. It seems to be almost universally derided by people who apparently assume that we're just trying to hurt a start up out of anti-environmental sentiment and jealousy. There are more ways to get "self-driving cars" wrong than there are to get…

What was the better solution here then? Assuming there's hundreds or thousands of self-driving cars suddenly driving in environment without any traffic lights. In the pictures you can see six Waymo cars at a single intersection. Assuming some of them had passengers should they all try to turn at the intersection anyway, when their LIDAR says the lane is likely free and pull over to the side? Is that the safest option…

> Assuming there's hundreds or thousands of self-driving cars suddenly driving in environment without any traffic lights.

Self-driving cars should (1) know how to handle stops, and (2) know that the rules for a failed traffic light (or one flashing red) are those for an all-way stop.

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#287

Post by cjsplat »

markus_zhang wrote: post #267
cjsplat wrote: post #193

I was driving across the east side of SF and hit a patch of lights that were out. The Waymo's were just going really slow through the intersection. It seemed that the "light is out means 4-way stop" dynamic caused them to go into ultra-timid mode. And of course the human drivers did the typical slow and roll, with decent interleaving. The result was that each Waymo took about 4x as long to get through the intersectio…

I’m curious what’s the regulation in this scenario? In Canada I think light off means 4-way stop signs so everyone obeys that, or at least most of everyone. What’s the situation in SF?

Yes, that is the same law in California, but so many people drift through stop signs that the guidance is close to meaningless.

In addition, there are 4-way stop signs all over SF and tourists regularly comment on how they work here.

The law is clear - yield to the right, but that is a pretty slow system in congested roads.

The local custom in SF is that someone is usually obviously first, rightmost, or just most aggressive, and opposing pairs of cars go simultaneously, while being wary about left turns.

Of course pedestrians have right of way in California, so someone in a crosswalk gives implied right of way to the road parallel to the person's crosswalk.

The result is 2x or better throughput, and lots of confused tourists.

So ... with the lights out on a Saturday before Xmas, there was a mess of SF local driving protocol, irritated shoppers, people coming to SF for Xmas parties, and just normal Saturday car and foot traffic.

I thought Waymo did pretty well, but as I said, I didn't see any ones that were dead in the middle of the street..

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#288

Post by JumpCrisscross »

andsoitis wrote: post #157
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does it matter Yes. OP is inferring Waymo's internal processes from this meltdown. ("Makes me think there are likely other obvious use cases they haven’t thought about proactively either.") If Waymo literally didn't foresee a blackout, that's a systemic problem. If, on the other hand, there was some weird power and cellular meltdown that coïncided with something else, that's a fixable edge case.

> > Does it matter > Yes. OP is inferring Waymo's internal processes from this meltdown. ("Makes me think there are likely other obvious use cases they haven’t thought about proactively either.") No, I'm not inferring internal processes. I'm guessing level of critical thinking. When you are creating autonomous vehicles, one of the things that you want to risk assess and have mitigation for is what you want the vehicl…

> I'm not inferring internal processes…I'm guessing level of critical thinking

Genuine question: how do these differ? Isn’t the level of critical thinking of Waymo’s employees internal to it? (What’s the mens rea analogue for a company?)

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#290

Post by autoexec »

dmix wrote: post #186
themafia wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps they haven’t fully thought through the ramifications of it though. There is a chorus of voices here on HN that have tried to do this openly, obviously, myself included. It seems to be almost universally derided by people who apparently assume that we're just trying to hurt a start up out of anti-environmental sentiment and jealousy. There are more ways to get "self-driving cars" wrong than there are to get…

What was the better solution here then? Assuming there's hundreds or thousands of self-driving cars suddenly driving in environment without any traffic lights. In the pictures you can see six Waymo cars at a single intersection. Assuming some of them had passengers should they all try to turn at the intersection anyway, when their LIDAR says the lane is likely free and pull over to the side? Is that the safest option…

> What was the better solution here then?

Just pulling over and getting out of the way really would help. There's no reason a human couldn't do the same safely. Not beta testing your cards on public roads would really be ideal. Especially without human drivers ready to take over.

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