Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Kroger acknowledges that its bet on robotics went too far

grocerydive.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

281–290 of 342 posts

Re: Kroger acknowledges that its bet on robotics went too far

#281

Post by vector_spaces »

jon-wood wrote: post #195
karamanolev wrote: post #123

I work in this exact space (online grocery retailer in Europe). We're profitable and one of the few companies to be so in the sector - many online divisions are losing money and being bankrolled by the parent company with physical stores. Alternatively, burning VC money. The thing that's wrong with Ocado's technology is that it's ridiculously expensive and tailored for huge FC's (fulfillment centers). The problem wit…

I think there's a space for something in between Ocado and Uber Eats, in the 2010s I worked for a startup where you could book an Ocado style delivery slot for the next day from a bunch of different butchers, bakers, etc and then we'd send a van round to collect from all of them and deliver it to you. Annoyingly they ran out of money just a little bit too soon, I'm pretty sure if they'd managed to hold out until 2020…

I worked in this business for over 15 years on the tech and business sides and I can say that the traditional VC-funded startup regime is fundamentally incompatible with the basic realities of the food industry. What is sort of funny about it is that in many areas there are local companies that have been around for many years doing this fantastically. As other commenters pointed out, this is essentially the milkman model.

There are a number of extremely difficult problems that are definitionally insurmountable on the timescales that VC operates -- paramount among them being the establishment of trust and mutualistic relationships with your vendors/stores, customers, and employees.

You are right that there is such a space, it just won't happen in the context of a startup taking VC cash.

Re: Kroger acknowledges that its bet on robotics went too far

#282

Post by Night_Thastus »

iambateman wrote: post #216

I’m regularly surprised by how important physically picking out groceries is for a large segment of the population. We have done grocery pickup for years but the pickup lanes are almost always empty while dozens of shoppers walk into the store. To me, shopping for groceries by hand is a waste of time but it clearly has some utility for a lot of people. I wonder if that inertia is making traditional grocery shopping s…

I'd imagine most people aren't 100% positive on what they want to get beforehand. Sometimes you only realize you want something after passing by it. Maybe it's something you haven't gotten in awhile and hadn't considered beforehand.

And even if you are completely sure on what you want in advance, having someone else do it is not always great. At least with Instacart, the person doing the shopping frequently didn't know where something was and just assumed it was 'out' and tried to substitute it (badly). There was all this awful delay and back-and-forth and crappy picures with the person shopping to try to get the right thing.

Doing it yourself doesn't have that problem. You know what you want, why you want it, and what you're willing to bend on. No, X brand cheese is not a substitute for Y branch I wanted, never do that. But yes, Z brand and type of milk is fine compared to what I wanted and I know they are frequently out.

Grocery store employees aren't any better at this, btw. Especially since the stores like to re-arrange on a monthly basis.

Re: Kroger acknowledges that its bet on robotics went too far

#283

Post by Forgeties79 »

adamc wrote: post #274
Forgeties79 wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I save money because I have Costco executive membership which also gives me Instacart for cheap, so I put those savings into the tip. Nets out about the same plus several hours of my life aren’t spent at Costco every month.

Many of us enjoy shopping, at least enough that what we would pay for it isn't much of a deal.

Just talking about why some people would want to use delivery even if they live close that’s all. Personally I can do without the chaos of Costco ha plus I go in person to my local grocers plenty in between.

Re: Kroger acknowledges that its bet on robotics went too far

#284

Post by adamc »

opinion3k wrote: post #233
iambateman wrote: post #216

I’m regularly surprised by how important physically picking out groceries is for a large segment of the population. We have done grocery pickup for years but the pickup lanes are almost always empty while dozens of shoppers walk into the store. To me, shopping for groceries by hand is a waste of time but it clearly has some utility for a lot of people. I wonder if that inertia is making traditional grocery shopping s…

I do most the cooking in my house, and the majority of it is meat and produce. I can say from years of experience that it's easy to grab a bad apple if you aren't paying attention or know about food quality, and from the grocery pickers I've seen, they aren't and don't. A guitarist doesn't just buy some random guitar from amazon - they see it in person and play it. If you cook and care about your food, using a food s…

This. Actually, I would buy a cheap guitar (but not from Amazon), say $400-500, for a purpose like having one to place when visiting relatives at Christmas. But I wouldn't buy a nice guitar without inspecting and playing it.

Re: Kroger acknowledges that its bet on robotics went too far

#285

Post by easton »

sct202 wrote: post #60
jlarocco wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I think in the cities Kroger grocery stores serve as the fulfilment centers, so they don't need robotic ones. There's probably still room for automation, but it might have to be different than warehouse automation.

Kroger placed one of the sites in Orlando to also service Tampa and Jacksonville when they have 0 regular stores in the entire state. They were trying to use it to expand into the area, but I never saw very much in terms of advertising or promotions to drive demand but it could have also been that the robots were so bad that they couldn't attempt to market and push volume.

I lived in Jacksonville for most of my life, and near the end of my tenure I started noticing the Kroger trucks. They were coming all the way from Orlando? That's like a two hour drive for cold groceries, feels expensive.

(i do recall the chatter that this was their way to compete with publix, although I don't know anyone who actually used it.)

Re: Kroger acknowledges that its bet on robotics went too far

#286

Post by sroussey »

mapt wrote: post #180
roryirvine wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the thing, though - you'd think that this would result in these "heavyweight" Ocado-style home delivery options being more viable in the US than in London. And yet, they're not. Sure, you have Doordash-style same-hour options which are largely based on someone picking stuff up from a local store on your behalf (we have lots of those too). But the Ocado/Kroger robotic hive fulfilment centres ought to be more ef…

Another possibility: For perishable goods in the sort of SKU counts typically offered, it can't work unless it has a certain minimum scale. Local supermarkets supported by a largely automated (and has been for 30 years) regional distribution center have that scale from walk-in traffic. A new delivery service using high-density storage could save on real estate and labor costs on the backend, but it has to have runway…

When I go to visit the Midwest in the winter, the perishables are… non-existent.

Re: Kroger acknowledges that its bet on robotics went too far

#287

Post by sroussey »

infecto wrote: post #266
wiether wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have this conversation regularly with friends, family, coworkers... And I've not yet been able to establish the right criteria to guess how a person is buying their groceries. Location, age, income, number of people in the household, physical ability... A single guy living in the city center with good income? Takes his car to go in big supermarket outside the city. A family with four kids living in the suburbs? Goe…

At least for me. I buy fresh food via online ordering because I hate wasting time these days. Driving even to a nearby store takes 10mins round trip. Then having to walk through the store and fine what I need and checkout. I would much rather order online and get it delivered. Produce can still be a gamble, pickers have no incentive to pick the best produce but for the average meal, that’s fine.

We have mapped the planet, yet no grocery has a freaking map to find what you need.

Re: Kroger acknowledges that its bet on robotics went too far

#288

Post by RandallBrown »

mikkupikku wrote: post #260
jon-wood wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a space for something in between Ocado and Uber Eats, in the 2010s I worked for a startup where you could book an Ocado style delivery slot for the next day from a bunch of different butchers, bakers, etc and then we'd send a van round to collect from all of them and deliver it to you. Annoyingly they ran out of money just a little bit too soon, I'm pretty sure if they'd managed to hold out until 2020…

VC reinvents the milk man (who used to deliver much more than just milk.)

Our milk man still delivers a lot more than just milk.

Re: Kroger acknowledges that its bet on robotics went too far

#289

Post by infecto »

sroussey wrote: post #287
infecto wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least for me. I buy fresh food via online ordering because I hate wasting time these days. Driving even to a nearby store takes 10mins round trip. Then having to walk through the store and fine what I need and checkout. I would much rather order online and get it delivered. Produce can still be a gamble, pickers have no incentive to pick the best produce but for the average meal, that’s fine.

We have mapped the planet, yet no grocery has a freaking map to find what you need.

That’s mostly my problem. Some of the apps have locations, often I find things not there. But for most stores they want you to wander and shop.

Re: Kroger acknowledges that its bet on robotics went too far

#290

Post by MattExact »

georgefrowny wrote: post #129
mosura wrote: post #3

Sounds like they just put them in the wrong places. > Fenyo added that Kroger’s decision to locate the Ocado centers outside of cities turned out to be a key flaw. > “Ultimately those were hard places to make this model work,” said Fenyo. “You didn’t have enough people ordering, and you had a fair amount of distance to drive to get the orders to them. And so ultimately, these large centers were just not processing en…

I idly wonder if what would actually make sense here is a hybrid model that combines a gigantic fulfillment center with tens of thousands of products located "far" from people, with a large physical footprint and near to road/rail arteries, but with a mid-bandwidth, high-granularity, low-latency physical link to "near" places. For example, imagine you had an upscaled pneumatic tube system (don't get hung up on the ex…

This is pretty much exactly what Ocado already do, at least in the UK.

They have 4 CFCs and 15-20 "spokes".

Post reply on HN