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I’m worried that they put co-pilot in Excel

simonwillison.net

281–290 of 346 posts

Re: I’m worried that they put co-pilot in Excel

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think programs are predictable, I have a bridge to sell you. The only relevant metric here is how often each thing makes mistakes. Programs are the most reliable, though far from 100%, humans are much less than that, and LLMs are around the level of humans, depending on the humans and the LLM.

Programs can be very close to 100% reliable when made well. In my life, I've never seen `sort` produce output that wasn't properly sorted. I've never seen a calculator come up with the wrong answer when adding two numbers. I have seen filesystems fail to produce the exact same data that was previously written, but this is something that happens once in a blue moon, and the process is done probably millions of times a…

>I've never seen a calculator come up with the wrong answer when adding two numbers.

Intel once made a CPU that barely got some math wrong that probably would not affect the vast majority of users. The backlash from the industry was so strong that intel spent half a billion (1994) dollars replacing all of them.

Our entire industry avoids floating point numbers for some types of calculations because, even though they are mostly deterministic with minimal constraints, that mental model is so hard to manage that you are better off avoiding it entirely and removing an entire class of errors from your work

But now we are just supposed to do everything with a slot machine that WILL randomly just do the wrong thing some unknowable percentage of the time, and that wrong thing has no logic?

No, fuck that. I don't even call myself an engineer and such frivolity is still beyond the pale. I didn't take 4 years of college and ten years of hard earned experience to build systems that will randomly fuck over people with no explanation or rhyme or reason.

I DO use systems that are probabilistic in nature, but we use rather simple versions of those because when I tell management "We can't explain why the model got that output", they rightly refuse to accept that answer. Some percentage of orders getting mispredicted is fine. Orders getting mispredicted that cannot be explained entirely from their data is NOT. When a customer calls us, we cannot tell them "Oh, that's just how Neural networks are, you were unlucky".

Notably, those in the industry that HAVE jumped on the neural net/"AI" bandwagon for this exact problem domain have not demonstrated anything close to seriously better results. In fact, one of our most DRAMATICALLY effective signals is a third party service that has been around for decades, and we were using a legacy integration that hadn't been updated in a decade. Meanwhile, Google's equivalent product/service couldn't even match the results of internally developed random forest models from data science teams that were.... not good. It didn't even match the service Microsoft has recently killed, which was similarly bragadocious about "AI" and similarly trash.

All that panopticon's worth of data, all that computing power, all that supposed talent, all that lack of privacy and tracking, and it was almost as bad as a coin flip.

Re: I’m worried that they put co-pilot in Excel

#282
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't move the goalposts. The claim was: > I've never seen a calculator come up with the wrong answer when adding two numbers. 1.00000001 + 1 doesn't equal 2, therefore the claim is false.

That's a known limitation of floating point numbers. Nothing buggy about that.

In fact in this case, it's not the known limitation of floating point numbers to blame: this Calculator application gives you the ability (submenu under View > Decimal Places) to choose a precision between 0 to 15 decimal places, and it will do rounding beyond that point. I think the default is 8.

The original screenshot shows a number with 13 decimal places, and if you set it at or above 13, then the calculation will come out correct.

The application doesn't really go out of its way to communicate this to the user. For the most part maybe it doesn't matter, but "user entering more decimal places than they'll get back" might be one thing an application might usefully highlight.

Re: I’m worried that they put co-pilot in Excel

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The autopilots in aircraft have predictable behaviors based on the data and inputs available to them. This can still be problematic! If sensors are feeding the autopilot bad data, the autopilot may do the wrong thing for a situation. Likewise, if the pilot(s) do not understand the autopilot's behaviors, they may misuse the autopilot, or take actions that interfere with the autopilot's operation. Generative AI has unp…

But now it seems like the argument has shifted. It started out as, "AI can make more errors than a human. Therefore, it is not useful to humans." Which I disagreed with. But now it seems like the argument is, "AI is not useful to humans because its output is non-deterministic?" Is that an accurate representation of what you're saying?

Because in one situation we are talking about augmentation, in the other replacement.

Re: I’m worried that they put co-pilot in Excel

#284
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two kinds of reliability: Machine reliability does the same thing the same way every time. If there's an error on some input, it will always make that error on that input, and somebody can investigate it and fix it, and then it will never make that error again. Human reliability does the job even when there are weird variances or things nobody bothered to check for. If the printer runs out of paper, the hum…

> . If the printer runs out of paper, the human goes to the supply cabinet and gets out paper and if there is no paper the human decides Sure, these humans exists, but the others, that I happen to encounter every day unfortunately, are the ones that go into broken mode immediately when something is unexpected. Today I ordered something they ran out of and the girl behind the counter just stared in The Deep not having…

Alignment problem? JK

Re: I’m worried that they put co-pilot in Excel

#285
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can train AI to be a better domain expert. That's not in question. I think that very much is in question.

I have to agree... I have no idea why I wrote that. Silly me. It's a bit of a global statement. There are, however, definitely domains it can excel: things like entry-level call handlers... I think they're screwed in all honesty! Edit: clarified some stuff...

Its not even the question at hand. The question at hand is what is the right solution mix to reduce costs. When that training cost can easily be 20x Brenda's lifetime earnings, its really hard to say the cost will be less for the LLM solution. The real barriers to entry for LLMs are economic and often involves the cost of errors instead of what process makes more errors.

Re: I’m worried that they put co-pilot in Excel

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The autopilots in aircraft have predictable behaviors based on the data and inputs available to them. This can still be problematic! If sensors are feeding the autopilot bad data, the autopilot may do the wrong thing for a situation. Likewise, if the pilot(s) do not understand the autopilot's behaviors, they may misuse the autopilot, or take actions that interfere with the autopilot's operation. Generative AI has unp…

But now it seems like the argument has shifted. It started out as, "AI can make more errors than a human. Therefore, it is not useful to humans." Which I disagreed with. But now it seems like the argument is, "AI is not useful to humans because its output is non-deterministic?" Is that an accurate representation of what you're saying?

My problem with generative AI is that it makes different errors than humans tend to make. And these errors can be harder to predict and detect than the kinds of errors humans tend to make, because fundamentally the error source is the non-determinism.

Remember "garbage in, garbage out"? We expect technology systems to generate expected outputs in response to inputs. With generative AI, you can get a garbage output regardless of the input quality.

Re: I’m worried that they put co-pilot in Excel

#287
post #82

I find the contrast between two narratives around technology use so fascinating: 1. We advocate automation because people like Brenda are error-prone and machines are perfect. 2. We disavow AI because people like Brenda are perfect and the machine is error-prone. These aren't contradictions because we only advocate for automation in limited contexts: when the task is understandable, the execution is reliable, the pro…

It's not as black-and-white as "Brenda good, AI bad". It's much more nuanced than this. When it comes to (traditional) coding, for the most part, when I program a function to do X, every single time I run that function from now until the heat death of the sun, it will always produce Y. Forever! When it does, we understand why, and when it doesn't, we also can understand why it didn't! When I use AI to perform X, ever…

The post you replied to called out how the argument is complicated arguing for both ways; Brenda bad-AI good and AI bad-Brenda good. You reduced it to "AI bad, Brenda good." Not sure about the rest of your response then.

Brenda just recalls some predetermined behaviors she's lived out before. She cannot recall any given moment like we want to believe.

Ever think to ask Brenda what else she might spend her life on if these 100% ephemeral office role play "be good little missionaries for the wall street/dollar" gigs didn't exist?

You're revealing your ignorance of how people work while being anxious about our ignorance of how the machine works. You have acclimated to your ignorance well enough it seems. What's the big deal if we don't understand the AI entirely? Most drivers are not ASE certified mechanics. Most programmers are not electrical engineers. Most electrical engineers are not physicists. I can see it's not raining without being a climatologist. Experts circumlocute the language of their expertise without realizing their language does not give rise to reality. Reality gives rise to the language. So reality will be fine if we don't always have the language.

Think of a random date generator that only generates dates in your lived past. It does so. Once you read the date and confirm you were alive can you describe what you did? Oh no! You don't have memory of every moment to generate language for. Cognitive function returned null. Universe intact.

Lack of understanding how you desire is unimportant.

You think you're cherishing Brenda but really just projecting co-dependency that others LARP effort that probably doesn't really matter. It's just social gossip we were raised on so it takes up a lot of our working memory.

Re: I’m worried that they put co-pilot in Excel

#288
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No contradiction here: When we say “machine”, we mean deterministic algorithms and predictable mechanisms. Generative AI is neither of those things (in theory it is deterministic but not for any practical applications). If we order by predictability: Quick Sort > Brenda > Gen AI

There are two kinds of reliability: Machine reliability does the same thing the same way every time. If there's an error on some input, it will always make that error on that input, and somebody can investigate it and fix it, and then it will never make that error again. Human reliability does the job even when there are weird variances or things nobody bothered to check for. If the printer runs out of paper, the hum…

Or the human might take the printer out back with his buddies and smash it to bits ;)

Re: I’m worried that they put co-pilot in Excel

#289
post #42

I find the contrast between two narratives around technology use so fascinating: 1. We advocate automation because people like Brenda are error-prone and machines are perfect. 2. We disavow AI because people like Brenda are perfect and the machine is error-prone. These aren't contradictions because we only advocate for automation in limited contexts: when the task is understandable, the execution is reliable, the pro…

> We disavow AI because people like Brenda are perfect and the machine is error-prone. No, no. We disavow AI because our great leaders inexplicably trust it more than Brenda.

> No, no. We disavow AI because our great leaders inexplicably trust it more than Brenda.

I would add a little nuance here.

I know a lot of people who don't have technical ability either because they advanced out of hands-on or never had it because it wasn't their job/interest.

These types of people are usually the folks who set direction or govern the purse strings.

here's the thing: They are empowered by AI. they can do things themselves.

and every one of them is so happy. They are tickled pink.

Re: I’m worried that they put co-pilot in Excel

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a broadly similar transition in feeling about my work. It's not about how much I get paid. It's about realizing how much of the value I produce goes to me and how much goes to the owner class. At least I never worked in a big corporation and I always had the ability to do work that directly benefited people using my code. But I still saw too much of the "I built this company" self-congratulatory BS from people…

even though my above message wasn't much about the corporate leeches, i did experience the fun of being my own boss in a way during covid doing mini gigs directly with people there's a blend of "i'm my own man": i get the money and handle the responsibility on my own and it's thrilling feeling i don't dimiss the layers of HR managing legal and financial duties in a company and thus taking a cut, but there's a kind of…

> i don't dimiss the layers of HR managing legal and financial duties in a company and thus taking a cut

I don't wanna dismiss them either but (along with management):

- It's not positive-sum work. It doesn't produce positive value for society, it's just necessary work which needs to be done as a side effect of actual positive-sum work being done.

- The pyramid should be inverted. Managers, layers, accountants, etc. should be assistants. The people doing the actual work should (collectively) decide to hire them when they think it would make them more productive or be otherwise beneficial to them. Not the other way around.

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