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French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

bbc.com

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Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#281

Post by n4r9 »

philipallstar wrote: post #270
n4r9 wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most people who commit a crime either do it in the heat of the moment, or believe that they're very unlikely to get caught. The distant prospect of punishment doesn't apply in either case. I guess there are some edge cases. Drug smugglers for example are probably aware of the rough probability of detection and weigh it up against the length of jail time. But I reckon Sarkozy thought he'd just get away with it…

> But I reckon Sarkozy thought he'd just get away with it and didn't even consider what the potential punishment would be. It's worth considering then that the next person who has the option to do this might behave differently, given Sarkozy has not got away with it.

There's definitely some truth to that. There are situations where someone might restrain themselves because of the consequences of getting caught. I suppose the question is whether the consequence needs to be punishment as opposed to correction or isolation. In the case of a narcissist like Sarkozy, the reputaional tarnish of being publicly labeled as guilty would be an emotional blow.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#282

Post by glenstein »

schmidtleonard wrote: post #221
greatgib wrote: post #146

Something really scary in France right now is that you can see really clearly how most mainstream media are used for propaganda. Since a few days, there is an abundance of cover and articles in most major newspaper here with propaganda and repeated lies supporting him. It's hard to imagine but non stop. You have everyday interviews of his family saying that it is an injustice, that he did nothing, that the judgement…

What's crazy to me is seeing this happen at an individual level. In 2022, my conservative family members were reluctantly but firmly on board with the idea that Trump did the crimes: lied to the tax man, stole the classified documents, leaned on the Georgia secretary of state to "find me 11780 votes," and on Jan 6 set up fake electors and asked Pence to overturn the election. In each case, they gave a good fight, but…

>and in 2025 they are gaslighting me about ever having had those arguments at all

This part is especially fascinating because I have heard of, and even had, remarkably similar experiences. The only real thing is the perpetual now. It's not even that they aren't curious or aware of what they said previously, they even emphatically deny their own words.

I don't know if you remember when Ebola was a big news topic because there were two or three cases in the U.S., but I had a family member insisting it was "just the beginning" and was going to get worse. A year later he said there's "probably a lot of stuff happening that's not reported yet". Two years later he forgot he ever said it.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#283

Post by croisillon »

wiz21c wrote: post #198
oulipo2 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Meanwhile 75% of French people agree that he should go to jail. This is nuts

And then France will get Bardella... It's very very close now. And thanks to Trump we are now arming Europe. It doesn't go in the right direction.

that's the problem with first-pass-the-vote: 75% against him and scattered over 10 candidates, 25% for him will help him reach the second round

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#284

Post by ecshafer »

tauwauwau wrote: post #110
yard2010 wrote: post #82

[flagged]

Law doesn't seek to punish but to rehabilitate. Act of taking freedom away from the criminal is violent enough. Treating them badly is just a sign of unfair/poor society that cannot maintain (afford to keep) it's promise to be civil to all citizens.

I would like a mixture of punishment and rehabilitation. If some kid shoplifts, then the balance should be in favor of rehabilitation. If someone commits treason or murder, then that balance is entirely on punishment, there is not rehabilitation left.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#285

Post by lukan »

n4r9 wrote: post #248
rat9988 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, if somebody kills my child, I don't know why you'd expect me to be helpful to him.

Even to prevent them continuing to kill someone else's child later?

A death sentence would certainly prevent this person from killing another child.

(Whether a death sentence is good for society in general is a different question)

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#286

Post by [deleted] »

greatgib wrote: post #146

Something really scary in France right now is that you can see really clearly how most mainstream media are used for propaganda. Since a few days, there is an abundance of cover and articles in most major newspaper here with propaganda and repeated lies supporting him. It's hard to imagine but non stop. You have everyday interviews of his family saying that it is an injustice, that he did nothing, that the judgement…

[deleted]

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#287

Post by 9dev »

I-M-S wrote: post #272
9dev wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because vengeance has never done anyone any good. You never feel better after getting vengeance, just hollow. Thus, a good legal system should strive to provide justice, not vengeance.

Have you ever distributed vengeance so you can personally speak how you felt? Or are you mindlessly repeating strings of words that are supposed to go together like an LLM?

I don't have to justify to you, random internet stranger. I have made my share of experience, and read a fair bit about that of others, in history and literature; and I'm confidently standing behind my opinion.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#288

Post by lukan »

9dev wrote: post #257
rat9988 wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, then who is reponsible for vengeance if not law? And why vengeance is not part of justice, this is not clear here.

Because vengeance has never done anyone any good. You never feel better after getting vengeance, just hollow. Thus, a good legal system should strive to provide justice, not vengeance.

What is "justice"?

To use the example from a sibling comment, if a person kills a child and the father kills this guy out of vengeance .. it will do those children good, who can now live in safety afterwards from that person.

But if in reality the murderer also had family who did not believe he murdered anyone in the first place now set out to seek justice/vengeance, then yes, it becomes a war .. which is why we have courts and police nowdays, but what justice is, is still rather arbitarily defined. Concretely it means enforcing the law. And laws are written by people.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#289

Post by ecshafer »

sillyfluke wrote: post #177
byroot wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has nothing to do with literature. It’s just a not so subtle way to claim he’s innocent and that he’ll get his revenge.

Amusingly, it's also inspired by the life of the writer's mixed race black father, who in the 1700s became the highest ranking black general in the west not to be surpassed until the American generals in the 1990s and supposedly attracted the jealousy of Napolean (See "The Black Count"). So there's something there for everyone I guess.

This is one of those I should have known better moments. But I have never put together Alexander Dumas the author being related (son of) to Thomas-Alexander Dumas of Haiti/France despite them both being French, mix-race and overlapping in time. Learning about Thomas-Alexander Dumas in context of Haiti and the French revolution vs the context of reading Alexander Dumas I just never thought of it.

Re: French ex-president Sarkozy begins jail sentence

#290

Post by kzrdude »

boltzmann-brain wrote: post #196
lordnacho wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I see in the US is that the judiciary has already become partisan. In most of Europe, if there's a trial, the judge is just some nameless character. I mean, he has a name of course, but nobody can really point the finger at them and say they are interested in one side or the other. It's just not the done thing. By contrast, American judges are appointed by politicians, and people can claim they are not impartial…

I think that's just a case of you not knowing European judges are partisan, rather than you knowing they're not. I think the relative obscurity of judges in Europe is just lack of scrutiny, and I personally know of numerous situations where cases are handled poorly.

Mistakes and worse is going to be part of any system. Systematic partisanship is something else.
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