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Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

bluewin.ch

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Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#281

Took care of someone with Alzheimers for six years until they passed away. No one should have to exist like that, for that long. A biological shell simply of automatic inputs and outputs. Robin Williams had to hang himself. There should be easy medical options in the US.

I think Alzheimer's is a particularly difficult case. Before diagnosis, many of us imagine that we wouldn't want to exist in a highly deteriorated state with no ability to care for ourselves. But as you start to decline, you still feel like yourself, just a very forgetful version of yourself. On which day do you decide that what remains of your mind isn't enough to make your available future days better than no future days?

The instinct for self preservation is strong. Knowing what will come requires foresight and clarity. You may lose the capacity for informed decision making before the point where it's clear that there's not much to live for.

Many of us lack the insight that Kahneman perhaps had that in order to take control of the end you may need to leave some good days on the table.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#282

Daniel wrote one of my favorite books, Thinking: Fast and Slow ( https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp... ). If you haven't read it, and you're into economics, behavioral psychology, and thinking about thinking then I'd highly recommend it. The first half of the book is especially compelling. You will be missed! Sad to hear he passed, but glad he was able to go out on his own terms.

[deleted]

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#283
post #14

> "I am not ashamed of my decision," he wrote, "but I don't want it to be discussed publicly either."

While I understand him, public personalities cannot really demand to avoid attention on such an existential topic.

They can ask. We're the ones choosing to ignore his wish.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#284
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they'll treat you with a daily oil bath and feed you tender coconut water ... until few days later your kidney's blow out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalaikoothal

I think people tend to underestimate the risks in allowing suicide —- here’s a blurb from the linked article: However, social acceptance may lead to more egregious abuses: the issue gained a higher profile in early 2010, when an 80-year-old man escaped after discovering his intended fate and heard his family members discussing how they were going to "share" his lands, and took refuge in a relative's home.

That’s not suicide. That’s a conspiracy to commit murder.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#285

My dad is in the early stages of Alzheimer's and it's made me think of what I'll do if I find myself in the same situation Assisted suicide sounds like a fine option until you think of its impact on your loved ones. Imagining putting my wife and kids through my deciding to die, and the process of them bringing me to the place where it happens - or imagining one of them doing the same thing - just fills me with horror

Death comes for us all. It’s okay to cultivate emotional fortitude to die on own terms, at the place and time of our choosing, with grace. Would you rather them remember you as a shell of who you were, long dead mentally while the body continues on? Death is a part of life we cannot avoid, nor should we.

> If you wait until a life is "obviously no longer worth living", it is already too late —- Kahneman

Live your life in a way that it is worth living until you no longer can, I suppose. To exist is hard, do your best.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#286
post #268

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…

I agree alzheimers turns everything to shit in every meaning of the word. I disagree it’s up to you to conclude it would have been better if he had been killed 3 years earlier (which you imply). In general you don’t have the right to such a statement. Now, if you were discussing _your own_ condition this would be a totally valid consideration IMHO. But you (almost) _never_ have the right to conclude from someone else…

It’s basically getting rid of somebody when they become an inconvenience to others. Outside the bubble of HN, I suspect most people that talk about it as humane for the person actually mean humane for them.

Many countries hesitate to execute criminals despite very clear criteria that could be used to justify it. (Many countries banned entirely.)

Why would we have a lower bar for someone who hasn’t committed any crimes?

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#287

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…

> it totally sours everyone's view of you.

That's just as much failure of everybody as it is of him. This was dementia speaking and society needs to learn that.

You wouldn't tell somebody with a broken leg to get it together and it's just their personality that they can't walk. Nor should you treat dementia like that. Yes, people seem to shift personalities and anger others. But those others need to understand that it's a medical condition, an untreatable and fatal one, so should have even more sympathy than with somebody who broke a leg (cause that will likely just be temporary). Not alienate the person and speak ill of them.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#288

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…

My issue is, anyone with half a clue should know that a formerly nice respected man doesn’t automatically turn into a mean guy that “pisses them off” because he wants to be. They should have known that he had dementia and it wasn’t his fault.

I’ve never been close to anyone who had dementia. My grandparents on both sides died with their mental facilities in tact and my parents who are 83 and 81 are independent and just as of 6 months ago passed a cognitive test. I can imagine if they started acting out of character and being mean to me or forgot who I was that I would be hurt, overwhelmed etc. But not pissed.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#289

So he was very old without any significant problems, but he wanted to avoid the inevitable problems? If you’ve already made it to 90 with no major issues, you’re expected to make it to 95 and you could make easily live to 100. My wife’s grandad is 90 and he still lives alone, drives, plays golf nearly everyday, and regularly sees his 12 grandchildren and many great grandchildren. He even made the 9 hour trip to come…

No, he was an old man who cared for his wife with dementia until his death, an experience which changed him. And thus he has chosen to go on his own accord.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the same reason many people are opposed to the death penalty. Death penalty is the government deciding to take your life based on what they believe you did. I agree, mistakes there are bad. Assisted suicide consists of the person dying giving their consent to take their life. Quite different.

Unfortunately consent is not always clear. For example, see my other comment in this thread about the reports on Dr Kevorkian's assisted suicides. Not only is whether someone gives consent sometimes unclear, it's also unclear if the consent was informed consent and whether it was uncoerced. Informed consent is obliquely mentioned in my other comment. For example, a patient may falsely believe their illness is termina…

The process in Québec doesn't have those flaws, it is much superior than the one used in the rest of Canada :

  To obtain medical aid in dying in Quebec, people must meet all the following requirements:

    have a Quebec health insurance card,
    be 18 years old or older,
    have the mental capacity to make their own decisions about their medical care,
    be in one of these situations:  
        and be in a state where their abilities are severely and permanently getting worse, with no chance of improvement,
        have a serious physical impairment that greatly affects their abilities for an extended period,
    be in constant and unbearable physical or psychological pain,
    be informed about any available means to relieve suffering,
    have decided that those means are intolerable.

  Once a doctor or SNP assesses the request, they must ask a second doctor or SNP to confirm in writing that the patient is eligible to receive medical aid in dying. 


  The doctor or SNP must also ensure that several measures to protect the patient have been respected. They must ensure that:

    The patient made their request freely and with all the information necessary to make an informed decision. 
    The patient repeated their request at different moments.
    The patient has had an opportunity to discuss the request with their loved ones.
    The patient has the opportunity to change their mind right up to the very last moment.

  If the patient has trouble communicating, the doctor or SNP must also ensure that the patient was given a reliable means of communication and understands the information they had received.
from https://educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/medical-aid-in-dying/
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