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German government comes out against Chat Control

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Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#281

Post by velocity3230 »

array_key_first wrote: post #233
ZeroConcerns wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why on earth would mass intercept be necessary Lawful interception is not "mass intercept." It's the ability to surveil traffic from/to a clearly identified party, upon a judicial order for specific reason, for a limited time. ChatControl, on the other hand, is mass interception. I'm against it. Most people in the EU are against it. But to prevent things like ChatControl coming up over and over again, a basic tool…

From what I know this basic tool already exists. In the US, the government can just ask any old company for their data and they have to give it up, just like they would their mail or their physical locations. I'm assuming the rest of the West has similar tools, warrants of some kind. The problem is nobody uses them to combat crime on the internet. They use them for stupid shit usually or stuff that involves lots and…

We're talking about end-to-end encrypted data here. It doesn't matter if LE have the company's data because it's just a scrambled mess. They don't have the keys to decrypt it. They only exist on the users' devices.

Chat Control seeks to execute on each and every device before/after encryption so it has access to the data pre/post encryption.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#282

Post by angry_octet »

SebKba wrote: post #248
egeozcan wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AfD is classified as extreme-right not only in the eyes of the public, but also by German intelligence. Therefore I'd personally expect them to support potential tools that authoritarian governments would find useful.

It's the classical playbook. Capture the media, declare the opposition illegal, bye bye democracy. The public was sold this Nazi story about the AfD by the established powers to keep them down. Looking at what has been going on it's wild to me to call the AfD authoritarian compared the the Altparteien...

The AfD are ultra right and leading figures have openly admitted that they contemplate killing migrants, de-islamification of Europe by expelling all muslims, breaking the EU, etc. They also scatter their speech with fascist dog whistles, and even Nazi slogans from the man in charge, Björn Höcke [1].

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/29/the-tr...

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#283

Post by immibis »

sfdlkj3jk342a wrote: post #35
jMyles wrote: post #26

A simple way to end the discussion: No matter what the state says, or what legislatures pass what laws, we're going to continue to live out our right to general purpose computing, including sending only what we choose to send over the wire, and encrypting content as we see fit. Now let's talk about something else.

That works until the government and media successfully push the narrative to the public that anyone using encryption is supporting child molesters and terrorists.

Media propaganda is insane. I saw on the news today: "Jew haters allowed to protest in Berlin." And people believe this nonsense.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#284

Post by zwnow »

WastedCucumber wrote: post #279
snehk wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People's homes get raided and their belongings get taken away for daring to insult the ruling class or for making fun of them.

Give us some sources sonst bist du einen Eimer.

Seems to be about Pimmelgate. Andy Grote to be specific.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#286

Post by angry_octet »

pembrook wrote: post #277
angry_octet wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not in government just yet. But if they gain control, expect their position to change. That's why it is critical to reverse government positions across the block, or we'll see a new authoritarian wave sweep Europe.

[flagged]

- All your fellow citizens keep voting for said welfare state/pension system (which is undoubtedly pro-Boomer and has unsustainably low retirement ages and large benefits).

- The lack of energy security is because the Red/Greens convinced everywhere except France (go Framatome!) to give up nuclear. I wonder why resource rich Russia would push such an outcome...

- Europe needs to spend its savings to get nuclear going again, with a massive construction program for nuclear, solar, hydro, batteries. It also needs battery tech re-capitalisation to keep its car industry viable.

- Leaving won't make it better, it is the same or worse in most places you could go.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#287

Post by jdiez17 »

pembrook wrote: post #280
jdiez17 wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is the legally accurate description of the AfD [1]. Just like it is legally correct to call Björn Höcke a fascist. [1] https://medienservice.sachsen.de/medien/news/1071656

Yes, now show me the legally accurate description of leftist parties with the opposite political craziness within it. The greens are filled with communists for example. Or the literal communist party, Die Linke. Why are they never referred to as the extreme left.

Here you go: https://www.bmi.bund.de/DE/themen/sicherheit/extremismus/lin...

Feel free to read the chapter „Linksextremismus“. It talks about various violent Antifa groups and other cases. Keep in mind that the definition of „extreme left“ refers to organizations that want to replace the basic democratic system with communism or anarchy (according to the German constitutional court).

It does not necessarily include „political craziness“ that we may disagree with. The point of these legal descriptions of organizations is not to be used as a political weapon for parties you don’t like. You have to do some significantly malicious stuff to be considered as such.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#288

Post by tvier »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #275
tvier wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're throwing a bunch of straw man arguments out, which makes it a lot of work to actually respond to this whole post. Rights are always on a spectrum with a large amount of grey area. > burkas are a security risk in public since people could hide and smuggle weapons under that This is silly. Everyone wears coats in the winter. > there could be men hiding underneath using it to enter female only spaces like bathroo…

>Is this actually a concern? AFAICT this isn't happening How do you know it isn't happening if their faces and bodies are always covered? Did you undress all of them to check? > it's just something that could theoretically happen Welcome to the real world where a lot of laws are made to cover things that could happen precisely so that when they DO happen, there's a law ready to enforce. Why? Because if something CAN…

> I'm not. You come to my house, you follow my rules, you come to our country you follow our values, simple

I wish it was this simple, so badly, but that strategy has been tried many times before and it always ends in violence. First off, who is "our"? Is it the majority? That leaves every minority group vulnerable. Is it the most powerful (it usually is)? That leave everyone screwed. It all seems great, until you end up as a target. This is why we base our systems of rights to more universal, and not based on our ethnicity.

For example, some of the historical opinions of my fairly recent ancestors: All Jewish people should be dead; ditto for Homo/Tran-sexual; also the Irish; black people aren't humans; the middle east should be owned by Western Europeans, and if not, designed to minimize the chances of them forming successful nations; same for Africa

Seeing this as bad assumes you think hurting other people is bad, which I do. If you don't agree, then there isn't much to discuss, you are entirely correct withing your framework

> Otherwise if you allow one flavor of imported oppressive culture so you don't ":force yurt values on other people" why not allow domestic oppressive cultures too, like fascism? Why only tolerate imported ones?

Where I'm from being a Nazi is completely legal. We tolerate both. There is still an ongoing discussion about where to draw the line, but the standards are always higher than wearing clothes that you don't like. Germany may not tolerate Nazi's for obvious historical reasons.

I would recommend "They Thought They Were Free" for a more of a look into this. It's an interesting book.

Edit: This is not true, almost all laws are passed to deal with a situation that is already occurring.

> Welcome to the real world where a lot of laws are made to cover things that could happen precisely so that when they do happen, there's a law ready to enforce.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#289

Post by geremiiah »

pembrook wrote: post #252
egeozcan wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AfD is classified as extreme-right not only in the eyes of the public, but also by German intelligence. Therefore I'd personally expect them to support potential tools that authoritarian governments would find useful.

[flagged]

The communist parties have very low ratings and never make it into coalition governments so they are not a threat. The Greens also have fairly low ratings and despite the image, they tend to be elitist neoliberal types. None of these people or parties are as bad or as dangerous as the AfD which is a party of grifters and fascists, full of unhinged people, who, even if you ignore all the hateful rhetoric, you couldn't trust to not destroy the country economically and politically.
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