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Americans increasingly see legal sports betting as a bad thing for society

pewresearch.org

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Re: Americans increasingly see legal sports betting as a bad thing for society

#281
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When they do it, it's gambling. When we do it, it's investing.

Investing is putting money into (hopefully) productive use, like a company with revenue, in an expectation of a return. Gambling is basically redistributing money according to a random numbers generator, It's a negative sum game (because the house takes its fee), but a surprise positive spike game. That spike forms an addiction in the less fortunate.

> Investing is putting money into (hopefully) productive use, like a company with revenue, in an expectation of a return

The big differences are time horizon, addiction and expectations.

The longer the term, the less actively one must watch it and the lower the expected returns, the more likely it’s investing. The shorter the expected turnaround, the more closely one watches numbers go up and down, and the more one is focused on turning multiples than yields, the more likely it’s gambling.

Any stochastic process can produce gambling behaviour. Only a positive-sum game can facilitate investing.

Re: Americans increasingly see legal sports betting as a bad thing for society

#282
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It could be banned. Would that stop it? Probably not. Absolutely asinine statement. Yeah no shit it's not going to deter the most degenerate of gamblers of seeking out a place to make bets. Will it stop apps being advertised on TV and the app stores from grooming new people into it? Yes. Will it stop people mildly curious from betting on sports? Yes. If "it" in "stop it" is "all sports betting" then no, obviously. I…

The point OP is making is almost completely unrelated to addiction. If someone is a gambling addict, they are going to do it. One of the issues with gambling addicts in the US before legalization is that they would use illegal bookmakers, and then get their legs broken. Legalizing is the only way to implement a harm prevention strategy because states regulators can control providers (for example, all states in the US…

> If someone is a gambling addict, they are going to do it

Gambling marketing, and the gambling industry, facilitate the production of gambling addicts.

Re: Americans increasingly see legal sports betting as a bad thing for society

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you buy a stock, you're not contributing it to the company's productive use. If I buy $1000 of MSFT, Microsoft doesn't get an extra $1000 in their bank account to invest in their business. That $1000 is going to another bettor to settle his previous bet, and at some point in the future, I'll sell and get an unknown amount of money to settle my bet. Just because historically betting on the stock market has been +…

> When you buy a stock, you're not contributing it to the company's productive use You are marginally reducing their cost of capital.

Sure, but that's pretty indirect and a far cry from "putting the money to productive use." Unless you're an early investor or IPO participant, your actual money is not being directly put to productive use by the company you are "investing" in.

Re: Americans increasingly see legal sports betting as a bad thing for society

#284

The legalization and popularity of gambling is more than just an immoral activity that has negative societal effects. It’s reflective of people losing hope in the system’s ability to make their lives better. Gambling thrives in contexts where a ladder to success doesn’t exist or is perceived as not existing. If hard work or time doesn’t make your life better, then fate is just chance, and you might as well throw your…

[flagged]

> Are you the arbiter of human morality?

This kind of response is toxic to intelligent discussion.

> people who don't know shit, don't know it and talk

Hi, kettle.

Re: Americans increasingly see legal sports betting as a bad thing for society

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you buy a stock, you're not contributing it to the company's productive use You are marginally reducing their cost of capital.

Sure, but that's pretty indirect and a far cry from "putting the money to productive use." Unless you're an early investor or IPO participant, your actual money is not being directly put to productive use by the company you are "investing" in.

> that's pretty indirect and a far cry from "putting the money to productive use."

All finance is indirect. Particularly at small scale.

> Unless you're an early investor or IPO participant

Plenty of IPOs are entirely secondary. And public companies regularly raise money via at-the-market offerings, where a random trader may wind up cutting a cheque to the corporate treasury. (I’ve been a seed investor and IPO investor. My effects on the outcome were rarely singularly meaningful.)

In a large offering, a small IPO investor has about as much direct effect on the outcome as someone buying the pop publicly. In aggregate, however, their actions are meaningful and productive.

Put another way: contrast two economies, one in which most capital is tied up sports gambling (negative-sum game), the other in which it’s in equities (positive-sum long term), one will outperform the other.

Re: Americans increasingly see legal sports betting as a bad thing for society

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say gambling in itself isnt immoral. The problem is that a small % of people get addicted and end up spending all their money and more on betting. And that the industry makes almost all their profits on those that are addicted.

Sure, we could get into a discussion on the morality of gambling itself, but if we look at pretty much every global ethical tradition (Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, etc.) it is frowned upon strongly. It seems to me like widespread gambling = negative social effects is a pretty widespread, obvious conclusion that most civilizations have reached. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling#Religious_views

In the Abrahamic tradition, seeking benefit by avoiding labor is sinful. I don’t think it needs to be widespread to serve as an example. One data point that widespread gambling was eroding norms was that professional gamblers could not give testimony.

Re: Americans increasingly see legal sports betting as a bad thing for society

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say gambling in itself isnt immoral. The problem is that a small % of people get addicted and end up spending all their money and more on betting. And that the industry makes almost all their profits on those that are addicted.

When Denmark liberalized gambling small "casinos" with slot machines and sports betting started to pop up everywhere. Those wouldn't be an issue if it was regular people popping Friday afternoon to get a coffee and spend $10 - $20 on the slot machines and perhaps put down a few bucks on this weekends big game, but you're right, it no. The addicts and lonely line up waiting for these places to open, they spend everyth…

And that is demonstrably very high.

Re: Americans increasingly see legal sports betting as a bad thing for society

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s reflective of people losing hope in the system’s ability to make their lives better. Kyla Scanlon (?) coined the term "financial nihilism" to describe this feeling: * https://kyla.substack.com/p/gen-z-and-financial-nihilism She thinks it's why things like cryptocurrencies/BTC have taken off: it's a chance to 'hit the jackpot', as many folks don't see another way to (financial) success.

I’m genuinely curious to what extent the hardships younger people face economically are related to wasting huge amounts of time on screens. The average Gen Z person spends nine hours per day on screens. The average 18-24 year old American spends more than three hours per day just on social media. I recognize all the various societal and structural factors that disadvantage younger people. At the same time, people hav…

> Do I have a point or is this just victim blaming?

A little bit of column A, a little bit of column B

so the nihilism is real and warranted, if they don't inherit at least a downpayment for a house from you while you are still alive, the jobs available - even for highly pedigreed people - don't provide the income for the downpayment, for the most part. they would need arbitrage with high paying work in a very low cost of living place, for a long time, or the same but coupled with a socioeconomic equal who also doesn't want any gaps in their high income employment.

many new-money parents want their children to prove... something... related to income and autonomy, which puts inheritance while living into "entitled handout" territory, instead of practical. while due to lifespan, any inheritance will only reach the child when the child is 60+ years old, where its impact to the utility and direction of their life is nullified, and it's just bean counting for the mere concept of "keeping money in the family" but doesn't give anyone a leg up in social status, partner selection, even where you own children's children go to school.

(note: if you actually are not confident in your retirement income and end of life care costs, then you are not parent this applies to. for parents sitting on big wins in real estate and other capital, it does.)

but the financial reality doesn't really support this slower moving culture. the share of people in the US that are both homeowners and married by age 30 has fallen to nearly single digits percents. Aside from marriage being less attractive too, many delay everything related due to being preoccupied with meager work and financial instability.

now that being said, the thing you are more familiar with, hustle, does still work. pumping earnings into an investment property somewhere less expensive does still work, only suboptimal because they would still need to be paying rent in the higher cost of living area. what's different is that burnout is just not valued any more. hustle culture itself is not valued, its nothing to brag about and a silent path one might pursue. while experiences are valued. entire generations of people watched gen-x and boomers delay gratification and saw their bodies fail by the time they reached the finish line. its seen as a cautionary tale, not discipline.

so yes, lots of people overcorrect into a defeatist attitude, but the incentives support it. normal jobs won't get them anywhere, high paying jobs also won't get them anywhere, the training for high paying jobs doesn't guarantee a high paying job either.

Re: Americans increasingly see legal sports betting as a bad thing for society

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to present a different perspective, abeit slightly radical. I believe that there's a place for a time-efficient, minimal human approval, risk-reward system for a society in which jobs have been gatekept to ever-higher requirements and are even harder to sustain due to pressures of the people gatekeeping you out and around you once you've gotten in (ie. the bureaucracies of your co-workers and your boss's tem…

I think what you're saying is that society would benefit from a kind of lottery system that made it easy for people to earn a sizable amount of money randomly , without any sort of gatekeeping? I agree with the premise, however, in actuality gambling systems are almost all designed to just extract money from people. Not function as a wealth redistribution system.

it's not really lottery, that system has to involve growing a 'skill' such that one could possibly get 'good' and 'rewarded' at it, and that 'skill' doesn't need human approval, which will make it a true alternative to getting jobs. bonus points if one can scale it up.

Take daytrading for example, of the 99% who fail are they all gamblers or are they just tolerating enough failures until they get a positive expectancy?

> however, in actuality gambling systems are almost all designed to just extract money from people. Not function as a wealth redistribution system.

Yea what I'm talking about isn't exactly a gambling system which will try to screw you over the instant you get some momentum of out a positive expectancy system.

Re: Americans increasingly see legal sports betting as a bad thing for society

#290
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gambling industry has funneled a ton of cash into academic researchers producing papers that gave credence to the idea of "addictive personality," which in turn was massaged by PR experts into the notion that some people are just born addicts, and the gambling industry can't help it if they become addicted to gambling too. "Addictive personality" itself is on very shaky grounds statistically, and the derived PR m…

"Addictive personality", now there is a deprecated phrase! In drug rehabilitation, the phrase is no longer used. Instead people have a bingo card of disease, conditions and syndromes to go with addiction. Once people have been pigeon-holed in a dozen ways then the die is cast, these conditions are no longer imaginary, you have to hold yourself up in life because X, Y and Z prohibit you from even giving it a go. Regar…

In terms of negative outcomes - suicidality, etc. - problem gambling is roughly equivalent to an opioid abuse or meth.
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