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Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

blog.pragmaticengineer.com

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Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#281

Post by nekusar »

stavros wrote: post #229
comprev wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it any different from working at a gambling company writing addictive software? There will always be someone willing to do the work if the pay is good enough.

It's a very smooth gradient from optimizing a sales funnel to writing gambling software. I don't know where the line is, but in both cases you're exploiting human psychology to make more money.

Absolutely is.

And its also why some of the anarchist folks I hang out with say there's no ethical consumption under capitalism. And definitely in areas, they're completely correct.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#282

Post by teiferer »

hvb2 wrote: post #253
teiferer wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the contrary. I do find it a disingenuous argument to say "most of this kind of crime goes unpunished, so the cases we do punish, we have to punish for life". The solution is not harder punishments for those that are punished, but punishing more of them.

Isn't that exactly how the criminal justice system works? Because you know you're not going to catch all the criminals you want the punishment to serve as a deterrent? Punishing more of them is easily said, when the crime is much harder to prove than shoplifting for example. And I'm skipping the fact that the shoplifter will be represented by an overworked public defender while the exec has a team of lawyers lined up…

> Isn't that exactly how the criminal justice system works?

No, it's not. We don't catch everybody guilty of petty theft, but those we do catch still don't end up in prison for life.

There was a time when we chopped their right hand off, but I'm glad those days are behind us.

(Reading many of the reactions here though, we are just a thin layer of judges away from mob rule.)

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#283

Post by teiferer »

jacquesm wrote: post #239
teiferer wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the contrary. I do find it a disingenuous argument to say "most of this kind of crime goes unpunished, so the cases we do punish, we have to punish for life". The solution is not harder punishments for those that are punished, but punishing more of them.

You're protesting a lot here.

I do hate economic criminals just as much as everybody else. But I also value honest arguments. The kind of thing this reply of yours didn't provide.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#284

Post by closewith »

LadyCailin wrote: post #266
closewith wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Globally, most software developers are not highly paid and certainly not enough to be above financial pressure. Becoming a whistleblower or refusing unethical demands can also lead to being blacklisted, as in most industries, loyalty is valued more highly than ethics.

And the more people that buy into that, the worse it gets. That’s why this has to be fought tooth and nail from day one.

If you want to fight corruption and unethical behaviour, start with a just society that doesn't tie a person's value and well-being directly to their income. Otherwise you're fighting incentives and will never win.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#286

Post by benoau »

mgilroy wrote: post #23

I was asked to sign off on an R&D tax claim for my team's work. I reviewed it and said no. Was then sent to a meeting with the accountants who explained the claim was based on what the CEO had told them. We went through the details and the agreed with me on most things. I also discovered that we were entitled to claim for things I wouldn't have known about and the CEO discovered that just because the credits were for…

This happened to me too, the claim was outsourced to a contractor who had never interacted with myself or anyone on my team - the only devs in the company - resulting in a purely fictitious depiction of what we did.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#287

Post by mielioort »

teiferer wrote: post #205
jcz_nz wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the very least, these folks need to have their names permanently attached to this atrocity. These weren’t decisions made by “a corporation” - these people sat across a meeting room table and actually concluded that targeting breast cancer patients was an acceptable means to an end. Lori A. Beer was the CIO at the time. Now at JP Morgan.

"permanently" "ever again" For good reason, modern law systems rarely issue punishments that last a lifetime. People can and do change, and something stupid (and illegal) you did 30 years ago shouldn't be held over your head today. These are rare cases for the absolutely worst crimes. For anything else, you receive a punishment, be it money or months/years in jail, and after that, you deserve a chance to live a life…

[dead]

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#288

Post by pbhjpbhj »

Xelbair wrote: post #228
teiferer wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"permanently" "ever again" For good reason, modern law systems rarely issue punishments that last a lifetime. People can and do change, and something stupid (and illegal) you did 30 years ago shouldn't be held over your head today. These are rare cases for the absolutely worst crimes. For anything else, you receive a punishment, be it money or months/years in jail, and after that, you deserve a chance to live a life…

Punishment should match the crime, to both rehabilitate and be preventative. White collar crime gets basically no punishment, and looking at career of those people they usually end up falling upwards. For such cases banning them from being in a management position for X years would be a nice discouragement.

I wouldn't ban them from management, just garnish their wages so they can only earn minimum wage (or minimum living wage). Also, no property ownership beyond a single home.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#289

Post by pbhjpbhj »

askonomm wrote: post #259
Loughla wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just false though. For poor people, if you have a conviction, it follows you forever and impacts your life negatively in a multitude of ways.

Depends where you are, I guess. In a prison-first rehabilitation-last country like USA, yes. In EU, many countries will close your criminal record after some years (7 in Estonia) at which point nobody other than law enforcement itself can see that you have a record. Not to mention that even if the crime you did was fairly recent, no company has the ability to check your background without your permission, and even th…

But if you're restarting your life after serving a sentence, if you're poor it will be very hard. If you have wealth you probably can easily put your crime behind you.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#290

Post by pbhjpbhj »

Spooky23 wrote: post #256
teiferer wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"permanently" "ever again" For good reason, modern law systems rarely issue punishments that last a lifetime. People can and do change, and something stupid (and illegal) you did 30 years ago shouldn't be held over your head today. These are rare cases for the absolutely worst crimes. For anything else, you receive a punishment, be it money or months/years in jail, and after that, you deserve a chance to live a life…

If you commit any number of stupid or criminal acts, you are legally blacklisted from the financial industry for life.

Should be unable to be a politician, or take part in the political process beyond voting (eg party donations), too.
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