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EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

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Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#281

Post by krapp »

spit2wind wrote: post #279
AAAAaccountAAAA wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politics are an inherently violent affair. The government is simply a monopoly on legitimate violence. Politicians decide the laws, which result in people breaking them getting beaten up & dragged to a cell. Not to say this is always a bad thing: some people cannot be stopped from misbehaving just by talking, but it definitely is violent.

I see this a lot and am not convinced. It appears reductionist in a way that feels like it's pushing an agenda. Democratic governments clearly are about addressing community needs and coordinating efforts that require pooled resources (at least). I'm not denying there may be a monopoly on violence. However, in a democratic system, such a monopoly would be voted on, giving the monopoly some legitimacy (not saying it's…

I mean, the state's monopoly on violence is a legal philosophy that's been around for over a century. It isn't exactly radical or controversial.

You can start from the Wikipedia page if you're interested[0].

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#282

Post by hsbauauvhabzb »

WithinReason wrote: post #203
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a backdoor, but a built-in snitch.

isn't that a backdoor?

To be honest, I’m starting to consider this more a front door. You don’t need to break encryption if you can just bypass it.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#283

Post by pyuser583 »

codeptualize wrote: post #26

One interesting line in the proposal: > Detection will not apply to accounts used by the State for national security purposes, maintaining law and order or military purposes; If it's all very safe and accurate, why is this exception necessary? Doesn't this say either that it's not secure, or that there is a likely hood that there will be false positives that will be reviewed? If they have it all figured out, this exc…

I mean national security agencies usually have their own extensive internal monitoring.

EU rules typically contain carve outs for national security matters too.

This is a bad law, but these carve outs are normal and expected.

Carve outs for politicians are a different matter.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#284

Post by Tadpole9181 »

AlecSchueler wrote: post #236
outime wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually, calling things by their proper name helps change perceptions, which often triggers other reactions. Language is very powerful.

I understand that but I'm asking what might be hoped to be triggered.

This forum has rules that would make this impossible to honestly answer, I imagine.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#285

Post by coretx »

graemep wrote: post #246
psychoslave wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not they ask experts. Politicians are so utterly incompetent on the thing they are putting law on, at the level they will believe openoffice is a firewall[1]. That doesn’t mean all of them are that blatantly unaware of the basics for which they are supposed to decide of some rule, but that is definitely a thing. The next thing is, do they know how to rely efficiently on a diverse panel of expert, or do…

> The next thing is, do they know how to rely efficiently on a diverse panel of expert, or do they take only yes-man/lobby-funded experts around them? Unfortunately, I know the answer to that! > The problem is not they ask experts I think with with IT they do realise that they do not know. They also believe someone who says something is feasible, or a good solution over someone who says it is not.

> I think with with IT they do realise that they do not know.

We are no longer living in the 2000's. They know. Many are simply evil or have competing interests and want to loose their income/career.

Regarding your parent, "direct democracy" is a euphemism for mob rule.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#286

Post by Aloisius »

yeahforsureman wrote: post #242
zx10rse wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't be serious. There should't be a discussion at all. This law proposal is explicitly against the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, the allegedly institutions that are supposed to upheld the charter are CJEU, European Commission, FRA, NHRIs, where are they?

I'm pretty sure that if this passes, the EU Court of Justice will eventually find it more or less in violation with EU fundamental rights. That will take time, though, so I guess they are either hoping that some impossibly secure, reliable and unerring technologies emerge in the meantime, or they are prepared for a forever battle with the Court, coming up with ever new adjustments as soon as previous schemes get stru…

I've looked at the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights and don't see why this would violate it.

Both the right to privacy and the right to protection of personal data have exemptions for government. The right to private communications was modified by the ECHR to give an exemption for prevention of crime/protection of morals/etc.[1] and the right to protection of personal data exempts any legitimate basis laid down by law[2].

[1] https://fra.europa.eu/en/eu-charter/article/7-respect-privat...

[2] https://fra.europa.eu/en/eu-charter/article/8-protection-per...

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#287

Post by hopelite »

throw-the-towel wrote: post #270
jacquesm wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who lived in a country under the russian boot at some point and who remembers the USSR from direct experience, you probably have a lot of stuff to study up on. But be careful on what internet connection you do it.

Direct experience of the USSR, in the Netherlands? I must be in the wrong timeline because mine certainly didn't have the Dutch Soviet Socialist Republic! Anyway, it's cute that you chose to respond with a personal attack on me. Looks like you don't have any other argument, and you know it :)

[flagged]

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#288

Post by Jensson »

Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #82
yohannparis wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And who runs the EU? The MEPs and members of the countries government. It's not like it's a different country imposing their way onto us. Talk/contacts your ministers and MEPs if you want your voice to be represented.

> And who runs the EU? How difficult is it to run? How much money do you need? What are the barriers to success? Is it set up so that only the already rich and powerful can run and win (and therefore they are just pushing their own interests), and if not do you need considerable financial support (and therefore are beholden to the already rich and powerful who funded your campaign)?

There are people with no backing, not even existing parties, that get elected as EU representatives. So its not that difficult to run if you have a platform some people care about.

It is much easier to break into EU than the local governments, since EU has so much less power, so you have more weird people there.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#289

Post by Jensson »

Xelbair wrote: post #263
izacus wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the fact that it didn't pass tells you something didn't it?

yeah, for now - it was always close. And they need to succeed only once. the issue is that they try to push it despite citizen protests, and each time they try people just grow more fatigued.

> yeah, for now - it was always close. And they need to succeed only once.

What do you mean, this can just be reverted it isn't like these laws can't be changed. Currently most people don't vote in EU elections, so you don't need much to affect those even if just 10% hates this proposal and go out to vote it would massively effect the outcome.

Therefore its much harder for unpopular things to persist at EU level than country level so far. Until EU has stable parties that is, but currently there is nothing stable at EU level, a tiny thing can change it all.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#290

Post by Jensson »

Okawari wrote: post #191
maybewhenthesun wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. The opponents (I am one for sure) are often saying 'This is not about catching criminals'. And they are correct in the sense that it goes much further than catching criminals alone. But there are a lot of people who are no experts in the matter (even among the politicians deciding this matter) and they will discard reasoning which start with 'it's not about catching criminals', because in many cases that is…

I think 'restoring the ability to wiretap' is misleading as this is not 'restoring the ability', its more akin to 'wiretapping everyone all the time'. Wiretapping requires probable cause and a court order in order to be used chat control does not. It will report thousands daily and no one will be blamed or punished for false reports which turned out did not have probable cause. It was a reactive tool in the police's…

> Wiretapping requires probable cause and a court order in order to be used chat control does not

Chat control does not allow the government to read anyones messages for any reason, so no that is not true.

> Wiretapping was not retroactive. This system will create records that can be stored for a long time for very cheap.

But storing these messages is illegal.

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