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Linux phones are more important now than ever

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Re: Linux phones are more important now than ever

#281

Post by mschuster91 »

preisschild wrote: post #256
szszrk wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried to debug a google pay issue with a Bank once: - Bank told me to go to Google. - Google support told me to go to the Bank. - (... few emails later...) - Google support told me to make screenshots of the banking app and google pay. So have a second phone ready, or stop complaining :) A few years later and 3 phones later... it works again!

Google Pay requires SafetyNet verification, which means it only works with a Google-approved hard & software combination, so not with GrapheneOS for example... I hate that banks use this proprietary "standard" for NFC payments

I get where that one is coming from though - tap-to-pay is considered second-factor-authenticated, aka no PIN entry is necessary at the PoS terminal because the user already entered their PIN or presented biometric credentials to the smartphone.

If a malware were able to snatch the key material that represents the credit card outright or it could (by running as root) act to the TEE like it were Google Pay's NFC controller app, it would enable the actor controlling the malware to spoof the credit card on their own phone... and since tap-to-pay is considered authenticated, chances are next to zero you can dispute the payment.

Re: Linux phones are more important now than ever

#282

Post by mschuster91 »

nicman23 wrote: post #228
Aerroon wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a temporary solution though. It's only going to get more draconian. Next thing you know the talk is about punishing VPN users, because now they can be painted as evading the law.

i mean yeah but you cannot do shit all about a vps. commercial vpns yeah you can ban and monitor. a vps is your own device just elsewhere

> i mean yeah but you cannot do shit all about a vps

Of course you can. The AS numbers of major hosting providers are well known and it is already common practice to ban associated IP addresses for stuff that should only be done by legitimate users.

Re: Linux phones are more important now than ever

#283

Post by p0w3n3d »

ivanjermakov wrote: post #279

Why don't we have an Android fork patched to fix all these "annoyances"? Android phone is just a computer, it should not be hard to unlock bootloader and flash it with anything. I understand that it would be cumbersome on Apple devices with all their efforts to lock down the system, isn't Android different?

I think it's because the Android latest changes are designed to prevent it. In other words, you can complicate the system to bring it to the place beyond fixing of the annoyances, or fixing would remove features you've entangled into it.

Re: Linux phones are more important now than ever

#284

Post by jeroenhd »

sharperguy wrote: post #261
VariousPrograms wrote: post #116

As someone willing to put up with all manner of nonsense (overpriced/underpowered hardware, clunky UI, endless troubleshooting), battery life on mobile Linux devices alone prevents me from using them in the real world. Is there a single Linux phone/tablet that can last an 8 hour day of actual use? Librem/Pinephone/Juno can't. My uConsole can't. Different category, but my MNT mini laptop lasts like 4 hours and can't b…

This is a big part of why Android was developed in the first place. The operating system and application architecture that makes sense on desktop just doesn't make sense on mobile. Despite the many problems Google's restrictive APIs which you are forced to use can cause for developers, they are also highly optimized for power usage.

The architecture can work if enough smart people are put to work on it. That's how Apple managed to turn macOS into a mobile operating system.

I think UBPorts and Sailfish prove that Linux for phones is practical if you're willing to rely on Linux applications that stick to mobile friendly APIs.

You need to configure and compile your Linux kernel for aggressive power saving, of course. Seeing how Linux currently struggles to effectively do power management on laptops without S3 sleep, there's plenty of work to be done if you want to use it with a phone.

It's not just about app developers either, Qualcomm's modifications to the Linux kernel are public thanks to GPL but most phone kernel modifications haven't made it into the upstream kernel so far. Projects like postmarketOS are trying to make things better but it's not easy to port practical code that works into code that's acceptable for the maintainers of the broader Linux project.

Re: Linux phones are more important now than ever

#285

Post by deivid »

liendolucas wrote: post #197

I tried the fantastic DroidVNC-NG (KUDOS to the author) app because I wanted to see if I could stream a whole Android phone left at home at all times. The idea was attempting to switch to PostmarketOS, so if I ever needed to use a banking app I could do it through this phone via a VNC client. You can't. Banking apps black the login screen. Even if that is ok for 99.9% of users, I know what I'm doing and I do not abso…

Have you tried scrcpy? https://github.com/Genymobile/scrcpy

I ran this with a custom fork to expose the device screen as a VNC server for years, no problems

Re: Linux phones are more important now than ever

#286

Post by deivid »

verisimi wrote: post #205
liendolucas wrote: post #197

I tried the fantastic DroidVNC-NG (KUDOS to the author) app because I wanted to see if I could stream a whole Android phone left at home at all times. The idea was attempting to switch to PostmarketOS, so if I ever needed to use a banking app I could do it through this phone via a VNC client. You can't. Banking apps black the login screen. Even if that is ok for 99.9% of users, I know what I'm doing and I do not abso…

I see the banking complaint all the time, but most banks provide a web site too. Is it really such a chore to use the site rather than the app?

Mine no longer allows website login without phone 2FA. Considering finding a new bank.

Re: Linux phones are more important now than ever

#287

Post by Sayrus »

ivanjermakov wrote: post #279

Why don't we have an Android fork patched to fix all these "annoyances"? Android phone is just a computer, it should not be hard to unlock bootloader and flash it with anything. I understand that it would be cumbersome on Apple devices with all their efforts to lock down the system, isn't Android different?

Manufacturers can prevent you from unlocking bootloader. Whether they are Apple or not. Samsung used to have a hard fuse that broke when you unlocked, it seems they now forbid it entirely.

Apps developers can decide to require Play Integrity so your Android fork cannot be used to run their apps.

Google can decide to not support or explicitly exclude your custom fork. Due to Play Integrity used on their own products, you cannot run Wallet on most forks where Google is not running as root.

Google can decide to delay or not publish source code so your Android fork cannot be maintained anymore.

Manufacturers, Google and developers can alter that deal at any point in time. Recently:

- Delayed patch of AOSP unless your are a partner: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45158523

- Wall of shame of manufacturers locking bootloader: https://github.com/melontini/bootloader-unlock-wall-of-shame

Those "annoyances" are only one of the attacks made, and not all of them can be easily defended against without having the manpower to actually maintain your own hardware and software stack.

Re: Linux phones are more important now than ever

#288

Post by takluyver »

dvh wrote: post #220

EU should fork Android. Fund a small team of devs, nothing fancy, no major changes just keep it secure.

I think governments funding software development could be a useful counterweight in an industry dominated by a few giant corporations, similar to how lots of countries have state funded media alongside commercial options.

But the EU forking Android is not a remotely realistic starting point. How do you persuade manufacturers to use it? Would Google license its proprietary apps to run on it? How will the small team of devs cope with whatever changes are coming in hardware next year? Forking Android is easy, making your fork a viable alternative is almost impossible.

In theory the EU could throw its weight around and demand that Google & OEMs work with 'EUdroid' if they want to sell phones in Europe. But that would be a massive political fight, much bigger than funding a few developers.

Re: Linux phones are more important now than ever

#289

Post by jeroenhd »

blueflow wrote: post #276
sharperguy wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a big part of why Android was developed in the first place. The operating system and application architecture that makes sense on desktop just doesn't make sense on mobile. Despite the many problems Google's restrictive APIs which you are forced to use can cause for developers, they are also highly optimized for power usage.

Android is also Linux, so Linux isn't the problem - its the userspace. In terms of wakeups, the systemd/dbus desktop architecture is the worst.

UBports (the maintained fork of the dead Ubuntu Touch project) runs fine with systemd/upstart/wayland.

Hell, my watch runs Tizen and that's running a bog standard Wayland + PulseAudio + systemd setup: https://docs.tizen.org/platform/porting/system/#systemd

With the right kernel drivers, configuration, and tweaks, with a well-configured userland on top of that, you can run the "normal" Linux stack in a mobile device.

Getting applications to conform with an API that won't let them drain the battery in the background to make sure notifications don't arrive two seconds too late is much harder. Desktop applications don't really like being suspended/resumed the way mobile applications do.

Re: Linux phones are more important now than ever

#290

Post by rkomorn »

tmtvl wrote: post #247
meiuqer wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by 'Belgium is not a nation state', if i may ask?

Belgium may be used as a stand-in for Brussels, i.e. the European Union.

I've heard Brussels as a stand-in for the EU.

I've never heard Belgium as a stand-in-for-Brussels-as-a-stand-in for EU.

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