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How can England possibly be running out of water?

theguardian.com

281–290 of 524 posts

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#281
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Privatization just means that if you were interested in the outcome before (having water), they are now interested in the money that can be extracted from it. And that means their interest is to but a modern branding onto an operation that has been stripped for wires as long as it works. I grew up during a privatization wave in my country and the promise of the proponents always was that private ownership means waste…

The "waste" argument is standard neoliberal nonsense. There are very few situations where the private sector provides a better service for less money. (See also the UK's NHS, which still provides a very efficient - if increasingly broken - service, while being starved of cash.) Like most neoliberal nonsense, it's not just a lie, it's a misdirection. What it really means is "Government money is being spent on providin…

"There are very few situations where the private sector provides a better service for less money"

The issue is when there is a monopoly. When you have a government monopoly of a specific industry, it's going to be poor. If the same thing happens in private industry, it's a similar outcome. There is no competition with the government, because they play by rules that makes it impossible to compete as a private business, so it's by default, a monopoly.

When companies compete, it's always better for the customer. Government run Internet (which is what we had before it was commercialized), was stuck in the same place for decades, with no innovation. It's pretty much universal and relatively cheap now.

In the US, you can look at the post office and private companies like UPS and Fedex. I used to run a business for almost a decade where I would ship out 100s of packages/week. The post office always had poor service compared to the rest...and the cost ended up being comparable. If you lost a package? with the post office, there was no real way to get your money back.

There's waste with government-run services because they never have to really worry about profit or losing money. Every government-run service I've ever used has been inefficient.

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#283
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true, but supermarkets compete with one another on price and other factors. They are motivated to do things to get more customers. Yes, there are many cases where supermarkets have been bad actors, but that's solvable with competition regulation. Water service is very different, and the current setup in the UK seems pretty insane - you can't have competition on who supplies water to your house. People aren't g…

> That's true, but supermarkets compete with one another on price and other factors. Except when they merge/consolidate and say they can find savings (which of course will be passed onto consumers) through "efficiencies" and "synergies".

Thus my comment about competition regulation.

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#284
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept of reservoirs and emergency supply seems to be completely at odds with privatisation. What private company is going to spend loads of money to build deep reservoirs that are stressed only once every 5 or 10 years. None. They're going to reach for an immediate supply like a river or aquifer and then raise prices if those sources run low. It's insane to plan out infrastructure on the belief that private com…

I'm inclined to agree that privatisation is bad for long term planning, but the history of the Abingdon Reservoir proposal seems to be counter evidence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abingdon_Reservoir Looks like Thames Water (a private company) proposed the development nearly 20 years ago, but it was turned down by the Environment Agency , a government body. > Plans for a £1bn reservoir in Oxfordshire to supply more…

The Oxford Clarion has had several posts about the proposed Abingdon damn:

https://oxfordclarion.uk/water-why-abingdons-mega-reservoir-...

https://oxfordclarion.uk/abingdon-reservoir-is-there-an-alte...

https://oxfordclarion.uk/abingdon-reservoir-what-are-the-ris...

https://oxfordclarion.uk/abingdon-reservoir-how-much-will-it...

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not free - there are explicit charges for it attached to our council taxes?

I literally said “I.e. paid for by taxes” :) But it’s unmetered, unlike most of the UK, and, as the other poster mentioned, cheaper.

Nitpick: "Water and waste water charges are set by Scottish Water and billed alongside council tax." They aren't a tax themselves.

https://www.fife.gov.uk/kb/docs/articles/housing/council-tax...

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#286
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stopping immigration in its tracks is the first step. If anything it doesn’t stop increasing. Then we can talk about the next steps.

Congratulations! now you have a island at the wrong end of a population boom. All of your former productive workers are now retired, and the rest are expected to pay for the retirees and aging infrastructure. Now, is growing by a million a year a good way to build long term? no. Is depopulation going to make the country better? also no. Immigrants aren't the problem here, They're not the one scaring away buisness, no…

[flagged]

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#287
post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, all the more reason it shouldn't be privatised. If it only makes sense to have one of something (road network, water system) it's a natural monopoly, _and_ it's going to require large public investment to be maintained, why wouldn't you in-house the expertise needed to do that and avoid the shareholder dividends overhead?

The overhead of having shareholders in this case is minimal. The profits they make are small, but having a goal of making profits does create discipline in resource usage. The water system is like the electricity system. It's perfectly possible to have inflows and outflows be fully private, as long as the government keeps its hands off the pricing. The network itself can also be run privately, as both supplier and bu…

This is why the state owned company structure exists. The board and management are correctly incentivized and the profit can be reinvested if necessary. No parasites.

You need a counterbalance to efficient resource use, usually competition ensures they don't skimp, that doesn't work with natural monopolies.

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good find, I admit I had jumped on the Thames Water is Evil bandwagon, and for the record they are evil, but in this case they have been out-eviled by that other driver of British societal regression: > Campaigners had fought the plan, claiming there was no need for such a large reservoir and that it would damage the environment. > Leader of the Vale of White Horse Council Tony de Vere said: "We are delighted with th…

I have friends in the Abingdon area and the primary objection, from what they've told me, is that locals objected to a reservoir that would mainly be used to supply London. Little Englanders at their worst.

And that's when parliament should step in and pass it as standalone infrastructure under its own bill.

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#289
post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, if a water company is in good financial health, with low debt and lots of money to invest in infrastructure, it’s completely legal for private equity to buy the company, stop investing in infrastructure, take out loans until a third of customer bills go on interest payments, and take the loaned money as ‘management fees’. Then dump untreated sewerage in rivers and demand more money from bill payers, bec…

Governments don't pay for infrastructure by saving up surplus tax revenue in a piggy bank. They take out loans to pay for it, same as the water companies do. The UK pays around 8% of its spending on interest payments and that's rising rapidly, despite the fact it can print money. British water companies are in lots of debt because they aren't really private. They're forced to spend huge sums to repair Victorian-era i…

You really twist yourself around here. But this?

> Decades of populist left or centre-left governments have kept the prices artificially low whilst requiring investment, resulting in a huge accumulation of debt.

Bloody Tories, the whole problem isn't that they were in charge for 32 years from 1979-2024, it's the 13 years of Blair. They have been powerless to stop the spooky Left and fix the pipes before the water was privatised (or anything afterwards, because obviously it's still the Left)!

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#290
post #185

I'm aware that England is not Scotland... But I was in Scotland a few years back (from Colorado) and I was constantly surprised by the incredible amount of water that came out of each faucet whenever I turned it on. Like, I get that nobody wants to wash their hands in a fine mist, but there's a point beyond which more means nothing.

I'm not sure how faucets work in the US, but most valves here in Europe are not binary: you don't have to open them all the way.

Maybe it was indeed more about the response curve than the max. Never managed to quite pin down the precise steps not taken, but when you grow up in a drought prone place, you notice their absence when elsewhere.
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