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Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

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Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#281

Post by [deleted] »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #268
_DeadFred_ wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine the risk of not being able to diversify your portfolio and putting all dependency on one income source. How do layoffs, broken health/major sickness, automation, local downturns get compensated by reducing future taxes? If I'm laid off for a year, then find a new job, I still pay the full tax amount on my income from that point forward, no 'loss deduction' from a year being unemployed. If I get sick with canc…

I agree with you that it is unfair that people with variable income pay more taxes than people with steady income even if average income is the same. I’m a poster child for people disadvantaged in this way. That said, I do recognize that mitigating this is really hard without introducing even more complexity to the tax code, which has its own cost. Wages have no risk when you receive them. It is cash on the barrel. T…

[deleted]

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#282

Post by maxerickson »

TuringNYC wrote: post #246
nonethewiser wrote: post #19

The poll is more interesting than the article: https://prod-i.a.dj.com/public/resources/documents/WSJNORCJu... 37% of people in the survey are unemployed. That is very high. Not at all representative of the general population (4 to 5%). 69% live in a home they or someone in their household owns. That sounds a lot like young adults yet to get off their feet. More interesting things: - opinion on economy and own financ…

>> 37% of people in the survey are unemployed. That is very high. Not at all representative of the general population (4 to 5%). I think the confusion here is the definition of various BLS metrics on unemployment. If I have a STEM degree, for example, but was working as a cashier -- I wouldnt officially be considered unemployed. In practical terms, many of these individuals would label themselves as unemployed, as th…

U6 is ~8%.

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t15.htm

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#283

Post by Analemma_ »

msgodel wrote: post #280
Analemma_ wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Inflation should be low and we should make it in the interests of the rich that it stays so. The prevailing opinion of a lot of progressive economists is just the opposite: standard policy for 40 years post-Volcker was to run with low inflation, loose money and slack labor markets, and probably all this did was keep wage growth depressed. The brief inflationary period in 2022-2023 was fantastic for low-income worke…

Growth in wages is meaningless if inflation consumes it. My opinion is that inflation is generally a bad idea but the thing that really matters is inflation volatility. The market will adjust for whatever the inflation rate is (unless its extreme) but volatility just results in loss.

That's why I specifically said real wage growth. In 2022-2023 wages for the bottom ~35% of workers increased at their fastest rate after accounting for inflation. Inflation-adjusted wages for the middle ~40% were basically flat and decreased for the upper quartile. And since that last cohort is the one which dictates policy, they'll make sure it won't happen again.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#284

Post by joquarky »

fragmede wrote: post #183
orochimaaru wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where in corporate America are you working where "hard work" and not "sucking up" is translating to climbing said ladder?

[flagged]

Comments like this are why I stopped going on reddit.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#285

Post by moshun »

vondur wrote: post #271
zackmorris wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't normally reply twice to the same thread, but I just wanted to say that I wish that the US had been founded with a co-equal branch of government comprised of people drawn via lottery (probably voluntary) like in ancient Greece: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition I believe that this was one of the great mistakes by our founders. I'm sure that many suggested it, but unfortunately their ideas were suppressed…

Ancient Greek politics were chaotic and violent, especially cities like Athens.

A couple of American politicians were executed in their homes a few months ago and one of the two presidential candidates was nearly JFKd in front of hundreds of cameras last year. A few years ago, a mob stormed the capital and erected a gallows to hang the sitting vice president if they could lay hands on him.

That’s violent enough even if you don’t consider the fact that de facto martial law is about to descend on major cities all over the country in the next few weeks. I’m doubtful that Greeks were anywhere near as volatile or violent as Americans are today.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#286

Post by ponector »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #192
jandrewrogers wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is simply incorrect. To make the tax incidence on wages and capital gains equivalent, you must first deduct losses due to inflation and risk. For wages, inflation and risk round to zero. For long-term capital gains inflation and risk are large and often the majority of the "gain". Short-term capital gains are already taxed like wages. In the US, unlike some other developed countries, there is a very limited abil…

Capital gains should be taxed as straight income. We should favor dividends over capital gains, which are harder to game with debt, PE burnouts, etc. Inflation should be low and we should make it in the interests of the rich that it stays so.

You shouldn't want a low inflation with such massive pile of debt, both personal and government.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#287

Post by recursivedoubts »

ponector wrote: post #286
recursivedoubts wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capital gains should be taxed as straight income. We should favor dividends over capital gains, which are harder to game with debt, PE burnouts, etc. Inflation should be low and we should make it in the interests of the rich that it stays so.

You shouldn't want a low inflation with such massive pile of debt, both personal and government.

I do want low inflation, as well as a debt jubilee[1] and a system reset to a sustainable economic model not based on usury.

[1] - https://michael-hudson.com/2020/12/jubillee-perspectives-wit...

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#288

Post by thesmtsolver »

Buttons840 wrote: post #190
thesmtsolver wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Only long term capital gains are lower than income tax 2. Long term investors invest in things that great new jobs, it is not just moving capital around.

"Long term" is 1 year, right? What a joke. Everyone can judge for themselves if 1 year is "long term".

Do you have another suggestion to address the core problem of how to inventive long term investments?

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#289

Post by thesmtsolver »

slt2021 wrote: post #208
thesmtsolver wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Only long term capital gains are lower than income tax 2. Long term investors invest in things that great new jobs, it is not just moving capital around.

its not only capital gains, it is the property and the system of shells and offshores that hides assets https://x.com/Finance_Nerd_/status/1952063667458978160 https://x.com/Finance_Nerd_/status/1952063659599106545

So you are saying only ultra rich benefit from long term capital gains taxes?

Any data on that?

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#290

Post by thesmtsolver »

rurp wrote: post #242
jandrewrogers wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is simply incorrect. To make the tax incidence on wages and capital gains equivalent, you must first deduct losses due to inflation and risk. For wages, inflation and risk round to zero. For long-term capital gains inflation and risk are large and often the majority of the "gain". Short-term capital gains are already taxed like wages. In the US, unlike some other developed countries, there is a very limited abil…

Your point is undercut by the vastly lower effective tax rates rich Americans pay vs middle class workers. It's the norm in this country for someone making millions of dollars/year to pay a significantly lower tax rate on that income than anyone working a decent paying job. A horseshoe shaped tax graph by income is clearly against the intent and spirit of a progressive tax code so something is very much broken and ha…

But your point is undercut by the fact the vast majority of middle class workers do invest and benefit from long term capital gains taxes.

Around 40% of stocks are in retirement accounts.

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