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Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

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Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#281

Post by Aperocky »

mb7733 wrote: post #227
Aperocky wrote: post #211

Occams Razor says no. A proper ebike won't stand a chance against the modern queen stage of the tour de france, even if ridden by a professional with appropriate gears otherwise, because the battery would run out half way on the first HC and it would just be a very heavy bike for the rest of the stage. Same with a tiny motor - you gain tiny amount of force but you'll have to carry a full bidon with you on all the cli…

While I don't believe they're being used to cheat in professional cycling, a motor would _definitely_ provide a massive advantage in a cycling race of any kind. A motor easily provides enough power to overcome its weight, and they wouldn't need assistance for the entire race, just an edge at key moments.

motor yes, battery no.

Think of the riders themselves as incredibly efficient batteries and motors - they can also recharge at 120g carb/hour. The motor itself is just deadweight over most of this process.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#282

Post by kjkjadksj »

ubermonkey wrote: post #184
le-mark wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked in a shop that sold LeMond bikes back in the 90s. Iirc they were generally a chromolly lugged frame. At the time a lot of the high end bikes were the same. Are these not common nowadays?

100% no. I've been on the bench for about a year, but I spent the last 15 years as a pretty intense recreational cyclist. I was in the tier that you might describe as "the craziest you get without having a racing license." There were very few steel bikes on those rides -- say, less than 10-15%. Carbon is by far the most common material, followed by Ti for the more well-heeled folks. Most of the steel is "modern", but…

The only things an older frame won’t accommodate is electronic shifting and disk brakes. You can run 12 speed its the same cassette width as its always been since probably 7 speed. Stuff like external cables actually are better for you as someone who isn’t a pro cyclist since shifting is smoother without under handle wraps, cables last longer with less tension in the brifter. Easier to service yourself than running the cables in the stem or frame. 8 speed better too because the chain and cassettes will last forever vs thinner higher speed stuff. Gear range is probably the same just with more increments so you get away with fewer shifts on 8 speed and just use your legs to find the gear and cadence balance. People did big descents just fine on rim brakes for decades until they came out with disk and made it seem like an issue.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#283

Post by ruszki »

stefs wrote: post #198
pge wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that history suggests this is likely. The dopers have substantially more financial resources than the testers. EPO is a great example. It was widely used in cycling for almost 10 years before tests were developed. It was pretty much a miracle drug from a performance standpoint and undetectable. The very few cyclists that tried to blow the whistle were run out of the sport. Similarly, blood doping was wi…

i'm unconvinced. EPO was undetectable, but not anymore. new undetectable substance would run the risk of being detectable in a few years. who would ignore whistleblowers today? and the USADA did bring the hammer down on LA at some point. sure, they pay off is high, but the risk - at least in cycling - is even higher, exactly because they've been caught once and now all eyes are on them. if pog gets popped, nobody wil…

Looking at how Armstrong and Contador are revived, there is not much downside getting caught years after doping.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#284

Post by kjkjadksj »

Der_Einzige wrote: post #256
jajko wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes those folks just tell the truth. Now if you are OK with cheating and this just annoys you that's another story but lets be honest here - professional cycling became pathetic deplorable 'sport' full of jokes of sportsmen that should not be respected or admired in any way, in contrary. Half of Olympics is heading that way but for some reason cycling was and still is ahead of the curve for quite some time. I'l…

Hey, that's a lot of mental gymanstics for saying "I dislike cyclists going slow on the road so I'll take it out on their sport". If you had the opposite idea of "doping is okay in sports" and applied the categorical imperative to it, we'd have a bunch of roided superman doing insane sports and it would be awesome. Daniel Tosh of all people proposed this jokingly in some standup years ago but why not just admit that…

This is kind of what is done in NBA and NFL. They saw how the MLB shot themselves in the foot and just opted to keep things quiet.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#285

Post by mft_ »

littlestymaar wrote: post #166
mft_ wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Motordoping does not exist. It does exist : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femke_Van_den_Driessche Aside from allegations about Cancellara (basically that his seated attack was too strong, plus he 'moved his hand suspiciously' just before) I always struggled to find an alternate explanantion for this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ideiS-6gBAc > There has not been a single case at top professional level even though…

> Or, no-one has been caught as they stopped before the checks were brought in, as it's impossible to hide without a much broader conspiracy? In which case you'd expect a performance drop when they stopped (like what happened with EPO), which hasn't happened at all.

(While I'm not arguing that motor doping was widespread) I don't think that's how it would be used.

Firstly, in 2025 (let alone a decade ago) LiPo batteries are pretty heavy for a meaningful amount of power. Even if you could hide them in a frame, there would be a disadvantage to pulling a lot of weight around for hours. (Try riding a ebike with the engine turned off.) It's therefore most likely that their power capacity would be relatively small - a lot less than today's consumer ebikes.

Secondly, a top pro rider can output an average of ~350-380 watts for 4-6 hours. [0] The limited capacity of a small battery is likely dwarfed in comparison. It's therefore most likely that (per the Cancellara example) they'd keep the battery power for a limited number of short attacks at a crucial moment which might help them drop an opponent and then allow them to ride clear for a win.

If this logic is correct, then the impact on overall times would be negligible as they're not using it for a significant proportion of a race, but the impact on a rider's liklihood to win might make it worthwhile.

[0] https://www.cyclistshub.com/mathieu-van-der-poel-statistics/

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#286

Post by timost »

alistairSH wrote: post #252
timost wrote: post #172

There is this french website[0] which (among other things) analyses TdF performances over the years. They compute power metrics based on climbing times in the mountain stages. The trend these last few years is quite worrying, reaching and going above peak doping-era performances [1]. The website is maintained by a former pro-level coach of the festina era. [0] https://www.cyclisme-dopage.com/ [1] https://www.cyclisme…

I don't read French, so can't directly comment on the content. However, these year-by-year comparisons often miss a few key points... - Technology advances. Looks at the jerseys worn during the peak doping era (Lance, etc) vs today - they look downright baggy in the 90s vs now. The bikes are more aerodynamic as well. The tire roll faster. - Nutrition has changed MASSIVELY in the last ~5 years. Gone are bananas and pa…

Thank you for your answer !

I'm trying not to pick sides but here are a few arguments they oppose to these key points :

- Technological advancement : Although it does play a role, they measure power in long climbs to limit that bias. Speeds are lower so aero plays less of a role. Bikes were already as light or even lighter in the 2000s. They also calibrate their power predictions against riders of the peloton who publish their power on strava.

- Nutrition has indeed changed, it helps producing near max power efforts at the end of long stages (aka durability) but doesn't play a direct role on pure max power (VO2 max related) which is what they are worried about.

- Regarding training, I'm not really sure, I think the pro peloton already had access to power meters in the 2000s.

- Regarding testing, it's indeed quite frequent but it's not bullet proof.

- I think the history of the sport is so bad it's hard to see the half full glass.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#287

Post by ortusdux »

daemonologist wrote: post #233
ortusdux wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much breaking is done during a race? Would a KERS style motor w/ capacitor be beneficial?

It would be extremely beneficial, but nearly impossible to integrate. Motors used for cheating in cycling are usually in the seat tube or down tube, where they can invisibly interface with the bottom bracket (between the pedals) and connect to batteries elsewhere in the frame. Because bicycles have a freewheel in the rear hub (chain doesn't move while coasting/braking)*, a KERS would have to be located in the tiny re…

Now I kind of want to see a separate Formula E style league that allows KERS

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#289

Post by lbreakjai »

stefs wrote: post #126
gwelson wrote: post #16

I am definitely a layperson when it comes to organized sports, but from my POV it seems like competitive cycling attracts WAY more fraud/cheating/doping/etc. than many other kinds of sports. At least I have heard about it a lot more. I wonder why that is.

i think that cycling is cleaner than other sports today. the past doping epidemics led to so much bad press cycling faced a huge sponsorship crisis. if another one of the stars would get caught today they'd take the whole sport down with them. so, if they don't cheat as much, what's left? todays cyclists are actually a lot better than the stars of yesterday, mostly due to better nutrition. training efficiency also im…

Spain doesn't test during evenings or weekends. They've also historically had a habit of turning a blind eye on positive tests, especially if the athlete was Spanish.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#290

Post by matthewowen »

gwelson wrote: post #16

I am definitely a layperson when it comes to organized sports, but from my POV it seems like competitive cycling attracts WAY more fraud/cheating/doping/etc. than many other kinds of sports. At least I have heard about it a lot more. I wonder why that is.

there's probably just as much doping in distance running but it's easier to evade (top athletes spend most of the year in countries that have limited interest in testing)
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