Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

proton.me

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

281–290 of 665 posts

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#281

Post by dcow »

bogtog wrote: post #243
andrewinardeer wrote: post #20

I'm not an Apple enthusiast—my rarely used iPad mini is my only Apple device—but let me play devil’s advocate. If a company invests billions in R&D to create hardware and its integrated software, shouldn’t it have the right to control who or what interacts with it? Why should I be forced to open up the carefully designed ecosystem I’ve built? If my pitch is premium, high-speed hardware and intuitive software so user-…

> If a company invests billions in R&D to create hardware and its integrated software, shouldn’t it have the right to control who or what interacts with it? Why should I be forced to open up the carefully designed ecosystem I’ve built? Once a company becomes massive enough and displays properties of a monopoly, the rules of free commerce change (that being said, I agree that Apple largely provides users with a high-q…

Well, I guess you’d argue that if the ecosystem is so big that it has a social-scale impact, then it should be subject to the whims of society. One such whim is adoption of capitalism as economic policy and a following belief in preserving the free markets that enforce the competition that is required.

Why do we oppress any freedom? When doing so protects the society we are trying to build.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#282

Post by adastra22 »

b0a04gl wrote: post #277

every developer knows safari is the new ie6 but we all just shrug and build native apps anyway because what else are you gonna do. leave 50% of your users on the table. classic embrace extend extinguish but in reverse. embrace web standards then purposely not extend them so you can extinguish competition

Chrome is the new IE6 if anything. Tons of websites fail to work on safari.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#283

Post by bakugo »

andrewinardeer wrote: post #20

I'm not an Apple enthusiast—my rarely used iPad mini is my only Apple device—but let me play devil’s advocate. If a company invests billions in R&D to create hardware and its integrated software, shouldn’t it have the right to control who or what interacts with it? Why should I be forced to open up the carefully designed ecosystem I’ve built? If my pitch is premium, high-speed hardware and intuitive software so user-…

> shouldn’t it have the right to control who or what interacts with it?

Does the manufacturer of your refrigerator have the right to control what food you're allowed to put into it? If not, why do you have different standards for computing devices? Why did it ever become okay for Apple to decide what you do with your device after they've sold it to you?

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#284

Post by insane_dreamer »

leetharris wrote: post #25
resolutefunctor wrote: post #15

There is a lot I hate about building apps and releasing them on the App Store, and I'd be happy for there to be alternatives. But that said, I don't understand how its a monopoly. There is no requirement to build an app for iOS devices. There are other devices and means for software delivery out there. What makes their control of their own ecosystem monopolistic? As someone who has paid the apple tax for digital sale…

Monopoly effects can be cascading. Microsoft was hit with monopoly on browser even though you can install anything or go buy a Mac. But when you control a huge portion of the PC market, and you put it in by default, you are cascading your monopolistic benefits down to installed software. Apple does not have complete domination of smartphone across all demographics, but they do have domination in many segments. For ex…

Not at all comparable. Windows had 90%+ of the PC market. Mac was 2-3%.

Apple has about half the phone OS market, with Android the other half.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#285

Post by adastra22 »

hks0 wrote: post #259
devmor wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a company sells me a hardware and software package, that hardware and software is no longer the property of that company once I have exchanged my money for it. That’s really the crux of the issue. If I must abide by arbitrary rules to use the package at its full functionality, then I didn’t gain ownership of it, did I?

Can't Apple say in this case "I'm selling you this package under the condition that you accept you don't fully own it, and if you're not happy with that, don't buy it". I don't like this hypothetical (or maybe real) argument from Apple, but can't answer it either. Update; well, here's the answer to that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44427725

No, the point is that we should not allow such contractual arrangements. You buy the software, you should own it. Regulations are often required to enforce this.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#286

Post by [deleted] »

lenkite wrote: post #264
BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no technological reason for app developers to be restricted from using other payment processors But there is a customer experience reason. As an iOS user, I very much appreciate that I can ask Apple to cancel some bullshit subscription that used to otherwise try to lock me in behind a labyrinth of added friction and timewasting. Not every problem is technological.

You are free to pay ~30% extra for your preferred customer experience. The rest of us can leverage discounted pricing. Customer Choice for the win! Also, thinking that all businesses will lock one in using friction and timewasting is not a rational argument. There are a lot of honest businesses there forced to pay the Apple Mafia's tax.

[deleted]

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#287

Post by fc417fc802 »

absurdo wrote: post #267
bitpush wrote: post #2

> We don’t question Apple’s right to act on behalf of authoritarians for the sake of profit, but Apple’s monopoly over iOS app distribution means it can enforce this perverse policy on all app developers, forcing them to also be complicit. Ouch. Those are some fighting words.

[flagged]

It's a comment intended for the court of public opinion, not one of the law.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#288

Post by fc417fc802 »

adastra22 wrote: post #282
b0a04gl wrote: post #277

every developer knows safari is the new ie6 but we all just shrug and build native apps anyway because what else are you gonna do. leave 50% of your users on the table. classic embrace extend extinguish but in reverse. embrace web standards then purposely not extend them so you can extinguish competition

Chrome is the new IE6 if anything. Tons of websites fail to work on safari.

IE6 was stagnant and not standards compliant. Safari at least complies with standards. Chrome is the polar opposite of IE6. Turns out it doesn't really matter what you do, if one party controls too much of any market it's bad news for end users one way or another.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#289

Post by AnthonyMouse »

boredatoms wrote: post #249
wredcoll wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a fancy lawyer or some kind of top flight ceo but I feel like "being able to cancel subscriptions" doesn't require a 30% cut off the top for apple. Also, as a customer, presumably you could choose to use apple's store.

Some vital apps will stop using apple’s store entirely if they could, it’ll proliferate

If we unpack this argument we can precisely pinpoint the issue.

In order for this argument to be true, Apple would need to have market power.

Having market power is the thing that makes tying etc. an antitrust violation.

Because it can be used for more than allowing people to cancel subscriptions. Like charging a 30% margin in a market where it's normally 3%, or excluding apps that compete with Apple software or services, or requiring customers to use a specific combination of hardware, operating system, app store and services, even if the customer only wants one of those things and binding them together then eliminates competition from any company that can't supply all of them. Which are exactly the sort of things that antitrust rules are meant to prevent.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#290

Post by bitpush »

adastra22 wrote: post #282
b0a04gl wrote: post #277

every developer knows safari is the new ie6 but we all just shrug and build native apps anyway because what else are you gonna do. leave 50% of your users on the table. classic embrace extend extinguish but in reverse. embrace web standards then purposely not extend them so you can extinguish competition

Chrome is the new IE6 if anything. Tons of websites fail to work on safari.

Maybe because Safari isnt funded by Apple, and would rather pump that money into extracting rent from App Store?

The few engineers that Safari has are top-top notch, but they wouldnt let them grow the teams and would much rather drag their feet.

Post reply on HN