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Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

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Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#281

Post by amanaplanacanal »

pydry wrote: post #278
amanaplanacanal wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd have taken that too, with security guarantees . Otherwise what do you do when Russia comes back for another bite of the pie? That's why they want to join NATO.

Ok so youre in the sacrifice and die for nothing camp then. >Otherwise what do you do when Russia comes back for another bite The fact that a neutral ukraine isnt enough of a prize to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of lives capturing. They did give it independence in the first place after all.

They've already invaded twice. You are way more trusting than I am.

I mean, I get it. If you are a pacifist, you do you. Repeating Putin's talking points probably isn't going to convince anybody, though.

Obviously, Putin has visions of a greater empire. Perhaps you are just intentionally blind to that.

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#282

Post by geoka9 »

pydry wrote: post #261
amanaplanacanal wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhh... Bleeding to repel the Russian invasion, you mean. Would you just roll over and let Russia invade your country?

I'd have taken the March pre-2022 deal rejecting NATO alignment in a heartbeat. In fact, even as the deals Russia offered got steadily worse they were always calibrated to be a better alternative than continuing to fight and lose. NATO isnt powerful enough/motivated enough to help Ukraine fight off Russia despite pledging unlimited support in March 2022 (now proven to be a hollow lie). There was nothing logical about…

> In fact, even as the deals Russia offered got steadily worse they were always calibrated to be a better alternative than continuing to fight and lose.

They were always calibrated to be refused and there is a reason for that: NATO expansion is a red herring that Russia wants to use as an excuse for the invasion.

> There was nothing logical about Ukraine's decision to reject neutrality and to try and set itself up as a NATO military bulwark along Russia's most vulnerable border.

Ukraine has been neutral, and in fact quite friendly to Russia, both according to its Constitution and popular polls, up until the point Russia annexed a piece of its land and invaded another piece in 2014. By doing that Russia has shown that no promise of neutrality can save Ukraine from its tanks. I am surprised that some people are still talking about neutrality in good faith in 2025.

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#283

Post by yread »

signaturefish wrote: post #187
weberer wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have handheld XRF analyzers nowadays. They cost around $20k.

Huh, impressive - I guess I'm out of date (and/or the people I listen to about such things have a working XRF already and don't want to replace a working unit).

You can get a used one for like 3k. I don't really need it but I have it on my santa's list for ages already. One day he will deliver I hope

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#284

Post by Paradigma11 »

mslansn wrote: post #260
SuperShibe wrote: post #87

The Germans in this article all appear to be aligned to either BSW (populist far-left, pro-Russia, anti-US) or AfD (populist far-right, pro-Russia). BSW wasn't even elected into the parliament and AfD, while being part of the parliament, has virtually no power due to not being part of the government coalition and all other parties sharing an informal agreement to not pass legislations with the help of AfD. What I'm t…

AfD represents the political landscape, even if they (yet) have no power because other parties have chosen to marginalise them whilst still can. As long as you have votes, there are people behind you. Isn’t that democracy?

The AfD got 21% last elections.

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#285

Post by Paradigma11 »

Lionga wrote: post #223
Eupolemos wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When under threat of invasion, that is logical, not controversial.

Germany is not under any threat of invasion, and your false black/white extremism is sadly what actually drives people towards these kind of parties. There is a lot of nuances there.

We also know that Ukraine was under no risk being invaded. Putin himself said so just a few days before the tanks rolled in.

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#286

Post by Paradigma11 »

tehjoker wrote: post #280
af78 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. The US has tried to minimize its involvement in this war before it even started. In the run-up to the full-scale invasion, Biden spent more time saying what he would not do than what he would do. Think that, to this date, the US has not supplied a single fighter jet. The only airframes Ukraine received were provided by European nations. About 30 Abrams tanks were delivered by the US, and that only after i…

Russia is basically ok with Ukraine being a buffer state so long as it doesn't become a NATO ally. At this point Ukraine will probably have to give up the Russian ethic regions adjoining Russia to get peace. Imagine if Mexico tried to join BRICS or the Warsaw pact back when it existed. You can see the realpolitik logic here. If you want stability and peace for the Ukrainian people, do a deal. Ukraine wasn't in play b…

Putin had already said 2008 that Ukraine was no real country. This is just a typical brutal postcolonial war of independence.

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#287

Post by IAmBroom »

tehjoker wrote: post #280
af78 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. The US has tried to minimize its involvement in this war before it even started. In the run-up to the full-scale invasion, Biden spent more time saying what he would not do than what he would do. Think that, to this date, the US has not supplied a single fighter jet. The only airframes Ukraine received were provided by European nations. About 30 Abrams tanks were delivered by the US, and that only after i…

Russia is basically ok with Ukraine being a buffer state so long as it doesn't become a NATO ally. At this point Ukraine will probably have to give up the Russian ethic regions adjoining Russia to get peace. Imagine if Mexico tried to join BRICS or the Warsaw pact back when it existed. You can see the realpolitik logic here. If you want stability and peace for the Ukrainian people, do a deal. Ukraine wasn't in play b…

> * The enemy of the USA ruling class, I personally don't harbor any animosity towards Russia though I dislike their form of government—a form that resulted from US attacks on the post-Soviet political economy.

So, Russia bears no responsibility for its own government, which is somehow manufactured by the US? OK, that's a new one on me.

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#288

Post by justsomehnguy »

geoka9 wrote: post #282
pydry wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd have taken the March pre-2022 deal rejecting NATO alignment in a heartbeat. In fact, even as the deals Russia offered got steadily worse they were always calibrated to be a better alternative than continuing to fight and lose. NATO isnt powerful enough/motivated enough to help Ukraine fight off Russia despite pledging unlimited support in March 2022 (now proven to be a hollow lie). There was nothing logical about…

> In fact, even as the deals Russia offered got steadily worse they were always calibrated to be a better alternative than continuing to fight and lose. They were always calibrated to be refused and there is a reason for that: NATO expansion is a red herring that Russia wants to use as an excuse for the invasion. > There was nothing logical about Ukraine's decision to reject neutrality and to try and set itself up as…

Remind us why a purely defensive alliance lead by a country on the othrr side of a planet needs to be closer and closer to the borders of the country against which that alliance was created?

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#289

Post by Havoc »

resource_waste wrote: post #158
Havoc wrote: post #136

Honestly at this stage all countries should pull their gold. The system was somewhat reasonable when the US acted more or less benevolent, but clearly when we're in a space where the US threatens to invade allies then they clearly are no longer trustworthy

As someone deep into International Relations, I always find it a bit interesting to hear when someone says 'X nation is untrustworthy'. I mostly find it interesting because it means some event disrupted norms to a level that The Commons is aware. Everyone in IR knows trust/morals is not something to put weight into, but 'normies' are always surprised whenever there is a chance in IR that contradicts international law…

Was about 50/50 when I wrote the comment whether to go with unreliable or untrustworthy.

But I think given context of gold held on little more than a pink promise trust is the right word here I think

>It will surprise most Americans to realize the world is not governed by Liberalism/Institutions

Yeah was surprised to recently discover less than <50% of the world pop is under democracy. Weird how distorted our perceptions are

Re: Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US

#290

Post by af78 »

tehjoker wrote: post #280
af78 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. The US has tried to minimize its involvement in this war before it even started. In the run-up to the full-scale invasion, Biden spent more time saying what he would not do than what he would do. Think that, to this date, the US has not supplied a single fighter jet. The only airframes Ukraine received were provided by European nations. About 30 Abrams tanks were delivered by the US, and that only after i…

Russia is basically ok with Ukraine being a buffer state so long as it doesn't become a NATO ally. At this point Ukraine will probably have to give up the Russian ethic regions adjoining Russia to get peace. Imagine if Mexico tried to join BRICS or the Warsaw pact back when it existed. You can see the realpolitik logic here. If you want stability and peace for the Ukrainian people, do a deal. Ukraine wasn't in play b…

Ukraine started seeking NATO membership when Russia invaded Georgia in 2008. NATO members refused, following this flawed logic "that it would provoke Russia". In 2014, when Russia first invaded Ukraine, Ukraine was still a neutral country.

The reality is that Russia had had NATO countries on its borders (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) for years before it invaded Georgia and Ukraine. And two years ago Finland joined as well. Russia did nothing to prevent this.

NATO is a defensive alliance. The only thing it threatens is Russia's imperialism and expansionism.

Russia broke countless agreements where it recognized Ukraine's borders and independence, so Russia's signature is now worthless.

The war could stop tomorrow if Russia stopped the aggression it started. But Putin has consistently made it clear he wants all of Ukraine. Here's a recent example: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-says-the-whole-uk...

Everyone knows how Russia treats the peoples of lands it conquers: torture, executions, deportations etc. No country could accept these terms. It would amount to national suicide. For this reason Ukrainians have to choice but to keep fighting.

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