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Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague

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Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague

#281

Post by JumpCrisscross »

pydry wrote: post #263
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AIPAC is a lobby, just like many other lobbies Sure. One among many. They’re influential, but not deterministic. > that they've paid $53M to politicians No, they don’t. They’re reporting campaign donations. There is a tendency, when we disagree with an election, to tally up the donations made to the other side while ignoring all the times the best-funded candidate got trounced. (Jeb!) The influence of money in poli…

Despite your presumption that US policy is set "because it's popular" it empirically is not: https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746 Israel's sway has more to do with the power it holds over the political classes rather than because of its "natural" popularity. It spends billions trying to sway public opinion, which is increasingly ineffective, but despite this their vise like hold over the American poli…

> Despite your presumption that US policy is set "because it's popular" it empirically is not

Not what I claimed.

Vocal, motivated minorities who are willing to back a primary challenger, show or not show to off-cycle elections and potentially even switch parties over an issue command in American elections. What the majority loosely believes is irrelevant; this should be common knowledge given how our partisan primary system works.

The loose majority in American elections doesn’t care about foreign policy. A motivated minority does, and that minority has historically—in both parties—broken decisively in favour of Israel. This issue, moreover, was one that was important enough to enough of them to be a deal breaker. (And “them” doesn’t just mean American or even Israeli Jews. It encompasses a wide variety of liberal, neo-conservative and evangelical interests, for example.)

Not everywhere. But in enough places that if you’re a politician from one of the majority of places where Israel is a total non-issue, you don’t want to alienate your colleagues for whom it is an issue. Because there was no upside to fighting a battle against Israel, again, nobody in your district was going to reward you for going de Blasio on out-of-scope problems.

> Israel's sway has more to do with the power it holds over the political classes

Sure. The point is the “political classes” are those people who are willing to back a primary challenger, show or not show to off-cycle elections and potentially even switch parties over an issue. It’s far more similar to how NIMBY politics work than Russia’s election interference, which has a track record of backfiring more than helping.

Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague

#282

Post by slt2021 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #220
1shooner wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>some APAC conspiracy This is not a binary of either NWO conspiracy or paranoid antisemitism . AIPAC is a lobby, just like many other lobbies. They boast on their website[1] that they've paid $53M to politicians. Just like any other lobby, the electorate has a right and responsibility to judge whether the influence it has bought is in their best interests. 1. https://www.aipacpac.org/home

> AIPAC is a lobby, just like many other lobbies Sure. One among many. They’re influential, but not deterministic. > that they've paid $53M to politicians No, they don’t. They’re reporting campaign donations. There is a tendency, when we disagree with an election, to tally up the donations made to the other side while ignoring all the times the best-funded candidate got trounced. (Jeb!) The influence of money in poli…

https://x.com/goddeketal/status/1934945918047998203/photo/1

aipac is boasting about funding majority of congress and is openly forcing candidates to pledge loyalty. If they dont pledge, they unleash the usual tools: funding the competing candidate, non-stop smearing campaigns via israeli-loyal media outlets and ethnically jewish journalists (==all mainstream media), bogus accusations of "antisemitism" and etc

Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague

#283

Post by JumpCrisscross »

slt2021 wrote: post #282
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AIPAC is a lobby, just like many other lobbies Sure. One among many. They’re influential, but not deterministic. > that they've paid $53M to politicians No, they don’t. They’re reporting campaign donations. There is a tendency, when we disagree with an election, to tally up the donations made to the other side while ignoring all the times the best-funded candidate got trounced. (Jeb!) The influence of money in poli…

https://x.com/goddeketal/status/1934945918047998203/photo/1 aipac is boasting about funding majority of congress and is openly forcing candidates to pledge loyalty. If they dont pledge, they unleash the usual tools: funding the competing candidate, non-stop smearing campaigns via israeli-loyal media outlets and ethnically jewish journalists (==all mainstream media), bogus accusations of "antisemitism" and etc

> aipac is boasting about funding majority of congress and is openly forcing candidates to pledge loyalty. If they dont pledge, they unleash the usual tools

Sure. The NRA does the same. There are various pro-Palestinian groups who also did the same last cycle; they may have helped swing Michigan for Trump.

Spending money doesn’t change minds, it helps activate latent sentiment. Particularly on low-priority issues, which foreign policy usually is for most electeds.

Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague

#284

Post by justacrow »

revnode wrote: post #264
Tostino wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the US is in the wrong, why should I as a citizen not want our government officials held accountable?

> If the US is in the wrong, why should I as a citizen not want our government officials held accountable? A core principle of American justice is judgement by a jury of your peers from your community according to our laws, not by foreigners on the other side of the planet according to foreign laws. Violations of our core principles through means we were not a party to is a violation of our sovereignty.

"Core principles" here also being America assassinating and kidnapping citizens of other countries wherever they may be on the globe.

Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague

#285

Post by ImJamal »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #171
ryandrake wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not overlook that Israel has bought all previous US presidents back to its founding, and more than enough Congresscritters. We have been treating Israel as if it were the 51st state, including unconditionally funding and defending it.

I think we can point to Trump as a particular outlier, who in his first term green lit the capital move from Tel Aviv to Jeruselum, burning considerable political captial among Israel's detractors, in exchange for..... absolutely nothing (seemingly). As well as his general rhetoric (like his comments on Gaza) being considerably out of keeping with most of the Presidents before him.

> the capital move from Tel Aviv to Jeruselum

Israel considers their capital to be Jerusalem. Was there any other country where we just reject the city they consider their capital?

Like would we tell Germany that we won't recognize Berlin as their capital and would instead tell them we are going to consider Hamburg their capital?

Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague

#286

Post by JumpCrisscross »

jordanb wrote: post #243
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because Israel bought Trump This is a self-defeating and untrue meme. Most Americans don’t say Israel is very important to them, favourably or not [1]. Historically, Israel was popular in both parties; that has now changed. As a result, being anti-Israel was dumb not because of some APAC [EDIT: AIPAC] conspiracy but because voters generally don’t respond to foreign policy issues (versus kitchen-sink ones) and the v…

I used to believe this kind of argument until Cuba. When I was young, the argument for why the US continues to try to punish Cuba was that Florida is a swing state and there are a lot of passionate anti-Cuba exiles in Florida who vote as a block. The problem is that Florida hasn't been a swing state in a long time, and yet we continue to embargo Cuba. In fact, Biden made things worse [0] The reality is that we don't…

> Florida hasn't been a swing state in a long time, and yet we continue to embargo Cuba

Policy has inertia. There are practically zero votes to be gained by going pro-Cuba. If there were evidence of it existing, we might see a policy change. But especially against the background of anti-immigrant sentiment, going pro-Cuba doesn’t make rational sense. No oligarchic conspiracy needed. (Also, oligarchs like trade. Especially if it requires an extra-special White House exemption to participate in.)

Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague

#287

Post by mr_toad »

vidarh wrote: post #185
spwa4 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For example: selective enforcement, for example states vs terrorists. Even Russia became a victim of that, which I'll point out in hopes of avoiding discussion on Israel. Russia, of course commits human rights abuses in Ukraine. But Daesh committed serious human rights abuses against Russia [1] [2], as did a number of other islamist, nationalist and even a socialist group. Not one iota of attention of the court ever…

The ICC takes actions against people. It very specifically does not have jurisdiction over conflicts between states . The ICJ pursues cases against states. > Not one iota of attention of the court ever went to that. The ICC only has jurisdiction over the territories and nationals of the State Parties to the Rome Statute. In the case of Israel, the actions are taken on the basis of alleged crimes in Palestinian territ…

So it’s like a court where only law abiding citizens agree to its jurisdiction and all the criminals get away with murder because they never signed a treaty.

Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague

#288

Post by 9dev »

threatofrain wrote: post #223
yoavm wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because Israel bought Trump I don't think the US ever had a president who cared less about Israel than Trump. The few times Trump has been on the Israel side seem to be only because Israel was "winning" some conflict, and Trump just prefers being on the winning side. He doesn't seem to care (or understand) the slightest whether Jews have a state, whether they can defend themselves, etc.

What mission does Trump care about beyond a convenient calculus of politics and money?

Being the best. Winning the peace Nobel prize. Owning expensive things. That’s pretty much it, I think.

Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague

#289

Post by pydry »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #281
pydry wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite your presumption that US policy is set "because it's popular" it empirically is not: https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746 Israel's sway has more to do with the power it holds over the political classes rather than because of its "natural" popularity. It spends billions trying to sway public opinion, which is increasingly ineffective, but despite this their vise like hold over the American poli…

> Despite your presumption that US policy is set "because it's popular" it empirically is not Not what I claimed. Vocal, motivated minorities who are willing to back a primary challenger, show or not show to off-cycle elections and potentially even switch parties over an issue command in American elections. What the majority loosely believes is irrelevant; this should be common knowledge given how our partisan primar…

>Not what I claimed

Yet what you directly claimed hinges upon this fallacy.

>Vocal, motivated minorities who are willing to back a primary challenger

Or foreign countries.

(is Russia also a "vocal, motivated minority" in Moldova...? or is it just plain and simple foreign meddling? Russia believes it's motivated minorities).

>What the majority loosely believes is irrelevant

Sure. But, this would make your clain of "Israel has had unique sway in America because for most of its history it has been uniquely popular" uniquely self-contradictory.

Re: Microsoft suspended the email account of an ICC prosecutor at The Hague

#290

Post by slt2021 »

SllX wrote: post #202
jeremyjh wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We defend some of America's interests, and harm some of its other interests. Mostly we defend the interests of the richest people in America and its military industrial complex.

We also elect the leaders that make those decisions and form the parties that nominate leaders to choose from. The winners of those elections get to choose the direction to lead.

you don't elect the leaders in america.

Two major party leaderships nominate their candidates, backed by hundreds of millions of corporate and special interest funding. Then some process called electoral college (that has some vague resemblance of the plebiscite) weights two candidates and picks a winner.

The candidate then has to obtain approval for every cabinet position from the congress (which is also getting funding in hundreds of mils from major corporate and special interest lobbying groups), that ensure that people occupying cabinet positions have policies aligned with their financial donors

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