I will do anything to end homelessness except build more homes (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: I will do anything to end homelessness except build more homes (2018)

#281

Post by goosedragons » Fri, Jun 20, 2025, 2:53 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #201

aqme28 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this take a lot but it's a very static take on homelessness. Yes, homeless people are often in a mental state where they are difficult to take care of. However, that doesn't mean they're homeless because they're mentally unstable. Often, the reason they are unstable is because they are homeless. Being on the street heavily exacerbates drug and mental health issues. Plenty of homeless people start out normal and…

Maybe for some, but how do you see it playing out? Suppose you're living in LA or NYC, and you lose your job, get evicted (takes a few months and you can't land on your feet by then) and then move all your stuff to a shopping cart and start sleeping under a bridge? I'm sure this has happened, but if I were in that situation I would begin by moving out of one of the most expensive neighborhoods in the world. Go to the…

Where are these cheap cost of living and high job availability places? How do you rent a place in a city you've likely never been, without a job already lined up, presumedly no money for a deposit? What do you do when you realize this cheap cost of living place pretty much demands a car to be livable?

Re: I will do anything to end homelessness except build more homes (2018)

#282

Post by albrewer » Fri, Jun 20, 2025, 2:54 PM UTC

aqme28 wrote: post #157

edude03 wrote: post #137

I think anyone who has actually been hands on trying to improve the lives of the unhomed know that 1) it’s a gradient between “I get kicked out of x everyday and go back at night” and “I’m sleeping under a bridge” and 2) rarely is it the actual cost of the home that’s the problem. Often it’s mental health / substance abuse / lack of a support system. Heck I think there is enough movies/shows about how people fall thr…

I see this take a lot but it's a very static take on homelessness. Yes, homeless people are often in a mental state where they are difficult to take care of. However, that doesn't mean they're homeless because they're mentally unstable. Often, the reason they are unstable is because they are homeless. Being on the street heavily exacerbates drug and mental health issues. Plenty of homeless people start out normal and…

I've housed two sibling that were labeled as "mentally unstable"(raised by mentally abusive narcissists) and "lazy"(has narcolepsy), respectively. Both situations were pretty bad before they landed in our home, but everyone in their lives called us "angels" for taking them in.

Each of them lived with my family for two years. All my wife and I did was let them exist in their own space with no pressure to do anything (other than coexist in our house, but that's purely logistics).

Both of them have gone on to go to college and pursue their respective dreams. The elder of the two lives independently, and the younger just shipped off to college.

The broader point being that most people just need a support network and a stable place to live to start to thrive.

Granted, that's just anecdata on my part, but it seems to line up with moth metal health studies I've read when it comes to homelessness.

Re: I will do anything to end homelessness except build more homes (2018)

#283

Post by insane_dreamer » Fri, Jun 20, 2025, 2:54 PM UTC

_petronius wrote: post #222

hnthrowaway0315 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, I'm not against building more homes though. I just think biasing towards social housing is better than building homes in general.

The point of that second link above is that any amount of housing, at any price point, lowers cost of housing for everyone, especially lower-income participants in the market. Housing is in such brutally short supply (goes for major cities in North America as well as Europe) that not only can we not afford to be picky, but in terms of actual effect it doesn't matter: social housing is as effective as luxury housing.…

> The point of that second link above is that any amount of housing, at any price point, lowers cost of housing for everyone, especially lower-income participants in the market.

Not unless you force developers to build even when it's unprofitable (or not profitable enough)

Re: I will do anything to end homelessness except build more homes (2018)

#284

Post by edude03 » Fri, Jun 20, 2025, 2:55 PM UTC

takinola wrote: post #264

edude03 wrote: post #137

I think anyone who has actually been hands on trying to improve the lives of the unhomed know that 1) it’s a gradient between “I get kicked out of x everyday and go back at night” and “I’m sleeping under a bridge” and 2) rarely is it the actual cost of the home that’s the problem. Often it’s mental health / substance abuse / lack of a support system. Heck I think there is enough movies/shows about how people fall thr…

I’ve been closely involved with one of the largest shelter providers in the Pacific Northwest for the last couple of years and I can say this is not true for the vast majority of people we serve. The primary causes of homelessness for those people are getting evicted because of a temporary financial crunch (health issue, lost a job, etc), domestic issues (leaving a domestic violence situation) or legal issues (refuge…

> However, what people miss are the tons of people living in their cars, wearing regular clothes, not panhandling and showing up to work best they can.

Sure, this is what I'm talking about when I say there is a gradient. But for argument sake/illustrative purposes though - what would housing have to cost to end homeless? And bonus question - what would zoning laws have to look like to get to this price?

I imagine the answer would have to be "free" but we know for a fact that wouldn't end homelessness because homeless shelters exist that cost $0 and homelessness still exists (yes, even where there isn't overcrowding).

And sure yes, I'm sure there are people that are hanging on by their finger nails - if rent goes up $100/m they'd have to live in their cars but I'm skeptical that zoning law reform is the thing that's going to save them (or end homelessness as the OP suggests)

Re: I will do anything to end homelessness except build more homes (2018)

#285

Post by nikanj » Fri, Jun 20, 2025, 2:56 PM UTC

edude03 wrote: post #137

I think anyone who has actually been hands on trying to improve the lives of the unhomed know that 1) it’s a gradient between “I get kicked out of x everyday and go back at night” and “I’m sleeping under a bridge” and 2) rarely is it the actual cost of the home that’s the problem. Often it’s mental health / substance abuse / lack of a support system. Heck I think there is enough movies/shows about how people fall thr…

A huge number of people end up on the street by simply losing income and not being able to afford rent anymore. We tell ourselves it’s substance abuse, so we can pretend it’s their own fault and couldn’t happen to us

Re: I will do anything to end homelessness except build more homes (2018)

#286

Post by camgunz » Fri, Jun 20, 2025, 2:58 PM UTC

edude03 wrote: post #226

aqme28 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this take a lot but it's a very static take on homelessness. Yes, homeless people are often in a mental state where they are difficult to take care of. However, that doesn't mean they're homeless because they're mentally unstable. Often, the reason they are unstable is because they are homeless. Being on the street heavily exacerbates drug and mental health issues. Plenty of homeless people start out normal and…

bko in the sibling comment said nearly exactly what I was going to say. While I do agree that you can "fall into" this start and it's very difficult to get out of - I'm very skeptical that with no other contributing preexisting factors you wouldn't be able to figure something out. You'd have to be extremely unlikely to - not have any family - not have any friends - not have any savings - not have anything they could…

> - not have any family / friends

This is largely true [0].

> - not have any savings

Americans basically don't have savings; median is $8k [1]. People of color save less, as do people in urban areas, as do poorer people [2], all of which is in line with who is more likely to be homeless.

> - not have anything they could sell

If you think about what one might go through on the path to foreclosure or eviction, you probably sell/lose a lot of things trying to keep your home. Maybe selling your car bought you a few months, maybe you needed it for your job(s) and it got repossessed. There are a lot of circumstances where this can happen: a partner dying, moving out to avoid intimate partner violence, health care costs, etc. This is a "slowly and then all at once" type of thing.

> - not have any ability to do even temp work (IE, had some traumatic debilitating accident)

Most of the time they're already working; 53% of homeless and 40% of unsheltered homeless are employed [3].

> - Not being able to move somewhere that's cheaper

Moving is very expensive in both a time and money sense:

- find time to pack

- find a new place

- maybe find a new job(s)

- put down deposits on everything

- purchase packing supplies

- either hire movers or do it yourself (if you're able)

- find time to move

- find time to unpack

This might seem like a ridiculous and petty list, but when you have very little time and money you think like this. It's also super stressful to think like this.

> - Not being able to take advantage of any social programs (I'm canadian, it's pretty easy for example to get a large portion of your school paid by the government)

US/US State social programs have huge paperwork burdens, onerous anti-fraud requirements, and don't even give you enough money to make rent after all that (the frenzied shouts of "housing subsidies?! do you want housing prices to get even higher?!" are responsible here, also--as always--a healthy amount of racism).

[0]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK218239/#:~:text=Most%2...

[1]: https://archive.ph/pOOk1 (MarketWatch)

[2]: https://www.morningstar.com/personal-finance/how-where-you-l...

[3]: https://endhomelessness.org/blog/employed-and-experiencing-h...

Re: I will do anything to end homelessness except build more homes (2018)

#287

Post by matt-attack » Fri, Jun 20, 2025, 3:04 PM UTC

albrewer wrote: post #282

aqme28 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this take a lot but it's a very static take on homelessness. Yes, homeless people are often in a mental state where they are difficult to take care of. However, that doesn't mean they're homeless because they're mentally unstable. Often, the reason they are unstable is because they are homeless. Being on the street heavily exacerbates drug and mental health issues. Plenty of homeless people start out normal and…

I've housed two sibling that were labeled as "mentally unstable"(raised by mentally abusive narcissists) and "lazy"(has narcolepsy), respectively. Both situations were pretty bad before they landed in our home, but everyone in their lives called us "angels" for taking them in. Each of them lived with my family for two years. All my wife and I did was let them exist in their own space with no pressure to do anything (…

And this is the problem with homelessness. There are two drastically different “classes” of homeless people. There’s the working single mother waitress or nurse who fell behind on bills due to medical debt, maybe rent went up and is just bad at managing spending, saving, etc. Now she’s living in a car.

Then there’s the batshit crazy dude who’s living under the bridge who’s staring off into the trees and can’t hold a coherent conversation. This poor soul is not homeless because his landlord raised his rent from $2000 to $2200 and he just can’t eke by.

However the mother in case 1, could absolutely benefit from:

1. Better health insurance 2. Better financial education 3. A credit on housing or whatever.

This is why no one can agree on homelessness because half the population imagines the “noble” woman scenario and the other half imagines the bat shit dude with his pants around his ankle.

The solutions to each are drastically different. So you sound like an idiot when you say “we just need more homes” when you’re picturing scenario 2. But equally people sound like idiots when you say “we just need more mental institutions” but the listener is picturing scenario 1.

We’re talking in circles and English needs more words to describe these two drastically different types of people.

Re: I will do anything to end homelessness except build more homes (2018)

#288

Post by ac29 » Fri, Jun 20, 2025, 3:04 PM UTC

bitlax wrote: post #239

Loughla wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can go weeks without smelling cigarettes or seeing someone smoking a cigarette. But every fucking day marijuana. Every public park; marijuana. Sports events; marijuana. Just sitting in traffic; marijuana. Waiting in fucking line at my kids' after-school pickup, marijuana. It's a little ridiculous at this point. I am a huge proponent of legalized marijuana, but for real. The people that do this are ruining it for th…

The commenters here have simply assured me that allowing these people to live near me will expose my young children to marijuana smoke, and that I will not and should not have any recourse. Many of them are marijuana smokers themselves. They have no answers, to the extent they could even see this as a problem at all or understand my very common point of view. This seems like a no-brainer, and I will continue to vote…

> The commenters here have simply assured me that allowing these people to live near me will expose my young children to marijuana smoke, and that I will not and should not have any recourse.

At least in the state I live in, the only legal place to smoke is on your own property.

So, if you dont want to smell it, you are basically arguing for it to become fully illegal again so you can call the cops on your neighbors. Thats a legitimate position to have but definitely not everyone agree with you.

(personally I am far more bothered by nasty exhaust fumes from vehicles and gardeners and I'm pretty sure they are worse for health too)

Re: I will do anything to end homelessness except build more homes (2018)

#289

Post by luizfzs » Fri, Jun 20, 2025, 3:09 PM UTC

edude03 wrote: post #284

takinola wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve been closely involved with one of the largest shelter providers in the Pacific Northwest for the last couple of years and I can say this is not true for the vast majority of people we serve. The primary causes of homelessness for those people are getting evicted because of a temporary financial crunch (health issue, lost a job, etc), domestic issues (leaving a domestic violence situation) or legal issues (refuge…

> However, what people miss are the tons of people living in their cars, wearing regular clothes, not panhandling and showing up to work best they can. Sure, this is what I'm talking about when I say there is a gradient. But for argument sake/illustrative purposes though - what would housing have to cost to end homeless? And bonus question - what would zoning laws have to look like to get to this price? I imagine the…

Having a roof above one's head should be a right, not a privilege. It becomes even more of a privilege when people view real estate as investment. They want to profit. For example, in Toronto, there are lots of apartments that are 'unrentable' because they were so badly designed that it's awful. They were built for investors to sell. Think of a studio costing 600k. Who wants to pay 600k for a studio? Like, where would someone be in life that they can spend 600k? I'd assume the majority would be married. They won't want a studio. Values are reversed. It's profit over welfare, unfortunately.

Lots of people that went to shelters prefer the streets because of several issues with people in the shelter. Violence, substance abuse, theft, etc. It's not like they prefer to be on the streets but sometimes that's the best option.

I'm not saying that this is the case for everyone on the streets; I'm saying that it is a fact that it happens and some people prefer the streets over shelters because of that.

Re: I will do anything to end homelessness except build more homes (2018)

#290

Post by edude03 » Fri, Jun 20, 2025, 3:11 PM UTC

fragmede wrote: post #279

bko wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe for some, but how do you see it playing out? Suppose you're living in LA or NYC, and you lose your job, get evicted (takes a few months and you can't land on your feet by then) and then move all your stuff to a shopping cart and start sleeping under a bridge? I'm sure this has happened, but if I were in that situation I would begin by moving out of one of the most expensive neighborhoods in the world. Go to the…

Not all of them, no, but if you give someone keys to a home the problem of them not having a home is solved. We may not be equipped to solve their other problems, but that does actually solve that problem. As far as going somewhere else, the problem is accessibility of resources for the unhoused. Many municipalities don't like the idea of random people going to their town and using the benefits from that town, you ha…

> but if you give someone keys to a home the problem of them not having a home is solved.

I guess this is the heart of the debate though - is homelessness caused literally by not having a home? And bonus question - would changing zoning laws as OP suggest solve this?

I'm arguing no - more often than not there are contributing factors other than mental health/abuse/drugs that cause homelessness to be your only option that wouldn't be solved by someone giving you keys. Most obviously - food, utilities, is the house close enough to work that you can walk there, who is paying for maintenance of the house, will you be housed with people that are actually homeless because of mental health issues - and will they do things that cause your own mental health to be impacted etc.