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Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

thecity.nyc

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Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#281

Post by Smoosh »

mlsu wrote: post #79
potato3732842 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Another thing that is troubling is that immigration law is sort of a parallel system to normal criminal law. The rights for the accused are lesser and obligations for officers are more lax. The burden of proof is lower. It's easier to get warrants and the rules of evidence are more relaxed. I would be absolutely elated if the end result of all this crap is a judicial president that eviscerates the many parallel syst…

It's fantastic that right libertarians have the opportunity to own me, a lib. The silver lining to all of this is all of the epic lib-owning that can be done as a result of the destruction of the rule of law. But, by my reading, traffic court and HOA fees were not cause of all of this. Right libertarians rightfully complained in 2001 when the DHS was formed; they again rightfully complained in the 2010's when Snowden…

What people don’t seem to ask is, what will all of those enforcement officers do once they have deported a sufficient number of people such that the task becomes more difficult?

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#283

Post by adr1an »

speakfreely wrote: post #240
Avshalom wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we want to stick to the facts: we don't actually have any proof that these were federal agents because they refuse to identify themselves. All we actually know is that Lander was kidnapped.

[flagged]

Ah, then it was a non-criminal kidnapping in a federal courthouse by unidentified police officers. That's so NORMAL!

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#284

Post by 28304283409234 »

Simulacra wrote: post #237
Simulacra wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flagged because it has nothing to do with technology, and actually goes against the rules.

Still has nothing to do with technology, it's only here because dang, and the left side of hacker news likes it.

The destruction of a democracy is not left, nor is it right.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#285

Post by tpholland »

wahern wrote: post #204
potholereseller wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Baudrilliard didn't assert that reality/facts never existed; he in fact asserted that prior to the 20th century, there was plenty of correlation between symbols and facts/reality. His vision of the hyper-real is that it is detached from reality and it's facts; this is why I included "mindspace" parenthetically as an alternative word for "hyper-reality"; those operating in hyper-reality are physically in reality, but…

Camus didn't consider his views existentialist, but I consider them as such. Likewise, for me authors like Baudrillard and Benedict Anderson (political scientist) have written works that I think well capture the substantive gist of post-structuralism, even if neither saw themselves as part of that intellectual movement (and few if anyone else would relate Anderson to post-structuralism). Plus, AFAIU Baudrillard turne…

I read all Baudrillard's books, back when he was relevant in the day. You've not missed much. In fact you seem more insightful than those who do have them all to set.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#286

Post by metalcrow »

Juliate wrote: post #269
metalcrow wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory, they are within their rights to retaliate. If an unknown person tried to kidnap you and doesn't present any form of ID, you have a very very strong case of self defense and genuine threat, and that would likely (IANAL) hold up in court if you ended up shooting them. It ended up holding up for Randy Weaver! You would want to surrender immediately upon being shown some ID, of course, but you could get away w…

But how do they know those are federal agents? I mean, if masked, unidentified people are kidnapping other people, what prevents _other_ masked, unidentified people to attack the kidnappers? Where this goes, as I understand it from my European heritage, is that you are _already_ in a situation where there's a strong incentive for an active resistance force to appear. ICE is clearly working as both an oppressive force…

If you're asking why the state isn't stopping them, that is part of the power asymmetry between states and the federal government. The federal government can, effectively, do whatever the hell it wants with no punishment because of a number of emergent reasons. States cannot, and if they attempted to would get dog piled by a dozen different checks and balances metrics.

If you're referring to why a civilian milita isn't spinning to to stop them, that's because there are (basically) two groups of people in the US. The type that are strongly pro gun, pro militia, and have knowledge in both are generally actually supportive of this particular case, and furthermore wouldn't act anyway unless they or people they like were directly targeted. This is an unfortunate cultural aspect of the US, and correcting it would have a lag time of many decades. Furthermore, the groups that did attempt to correct it got crushed by the federal government for a few decades (see the MOVE bombings, and the Black Partners history), so are extra behind. However, spinning up a small militia for directly opposing this may happen. It would look similar to the CHAZ, but that requires a large group of dedicated and motivated people to spontaneously group together.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#287

Post by computerthings »

incomingpain wrote: post #278
atmavatar wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, all that assumes the detainee is given due process. If they're just going to kidnap people and take them away to El Salvadorian prisons, things like probable cause, miranda rights, and evidence are moot.

>Of course, all that assumes the detainee is given due process. Well I got downvoted and everyone like you seem to think due process has been suspended. Literally before I posted the guy had been released. ""I am just fine, I lost a button, but I'm going to sleep in my bed tonight.""

[dead]

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#288

Post by TheCoelacanth »

timr wrote: post #139
sjsdaiuasgdia wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we're meant to be upset that they dared treat another agent of the state, I'm upset because a US citizen was arrested for asking a reasonable question to some government officials before complying with the government officials.

> I'm upset because a US citizen was arrested for asking a reasonable question to some government officials before complying with the government officials. Some basic facts are true here: a) Brad Lander had no official capacity in that situation. b) As a random person, he had no right to demand to see any documents, whatsoever, from the people doing the arrest. c) Even if he thought the detention was illegal , and th…

All he did was link arms with another person. Everyone has the right to link arms with another person.

If law enforcement wants him to stop doing that, it is perfectly reasonable to expect them to prove that they actually have the authority to do so.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#289

Post by Juliate »

metalcrow wrote: post #286
Juliate wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how do they know those are federal agents? I mean, if masked, unidentified people are kidnapping other people, what prevents _other_ masked, unidentified people to attack the kidnappers? Where this goes, as I understand it from my European heritage, is that you are _already_ in a situation where there's a strong incentive for an active resistance force to appear. ICE is clearly working as both an oppressive force…

If you're asking why the state isn't stopping them, that is part of the power asymmetry between states and the federal government. The federal government can, effectively, do whatever the hell it wants with no punishment because of a number of emergent reasons. States cannot, and if they attempted to would get dog piled by a dozen different checks and balances metrics. If you're referring to why a civilian milita isn…

Thanks for the explanation. I hadn't thought the pro gun/militia type was consistent with pro trump/conservative.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#290

Post by TheCoelacanth »

potato3732842 wrote: post #272
disattention wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seems to be a clear difference between criminals doing shady things and the government doing shady things. It seems like a false equivalency to compare an incident where a random guy does something terrible to one where law enforcement is rapturing people into the night while wearing masks.

What is law enforcement if not just random guys in uniform? If the same acts are/were committed (i.e. ditch the sex trafficking example because the .gov doesn't really do that) what makes their misdeeds not equivalent to those of the non-state actor?

The difference is that we have entrusted law enforcement with a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence and so we expect them to hold themselves to a higher standard to be worthy of the enormous power they exercise on our behalf.
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