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My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

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Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#281

Curious how he reconciles this: > If you build something with an LLM that people will depend on, read the code. In fact, you’ll probably do more than that. You’ll spend 5-10 minutes knocking it back into your own style. with Joel Spolsky's fundamental maxim: > It’s harder to read code than to write it. https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-...

You can invest more time in the writing to make code easier to read. It’s just that it typically would take much more time. It would be conceivable for LLMs to eventually reach a state where they can produce such easily readable and comprehensible code.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#282
> A heartfelt provocation

okay then (profanity begets profanity)

> Reading other people’s code is part of the job. If you can’t metabolize the boring, repetitive code an LLM generates: skills issue!

Do you /intend/ to spend /most/ of your work life reading AI puke? If so: sanity issue! You are advocating for replacing creative action that gives you Flow with reaction that gives you hemorrhoids, as the /bulk of the work/. Fuck right off.

> How are you handling the chaos human developers turn out on a deadline?

By correcting the deadline setting methodology for the next round of development.

> Does an intern cost $20/month? Because that’s what Cursor.ai costs

then rely on Cursor.ai to raise your next-gen seniors who are going to be supposed to review AI puke in the future

> but the craft [...] Do it on your own time

Go choke on a bag of dicks. You are the problem. This is why quality no longer exists in the world, only lowest common denominator consumerist shit. This is why cars, home appliances, and tools have been getting both worse and more user-hostile. Because nobody values the quality of their own creative output anymore. Quality should not be an exception (which makes it very expensive), but the standard. Quality should be a near-commodity, and therefore at least occasionally affordable for anyone.

> I buy a fucking table

A ridiculously low quality, but hey, cheap!, table, that will fail you at the most inopportune moment. IKEA does have its place, but it's probably not in your office where you receive clients. Do you want them to see the table top fly off?

> They almost certainly have a bigger bag of algorithmic tricks than you do: radix tries, topological sorts, graph reductions, and LDPC codes

and you'll have to review that bag of algorithmic tricks embedded in AI puke, with potential hallucinations introducing obscure, critical mathematical bugs. Good luck verifying all that as a senior, based on proofs and first principles. A human coder will either use a well-reviewed library, or cite a textbook, and implement the textbook very closely, so you can follow it, and have some trust in the intent at least.

> No profession has demonstrated more contempt for intellectual property

how disingenuous. you are showing contempt for copyright. You are totally missing the point of copyleft. Copyleft doesn't advocate for anarchy, it advocates for user freedom via the software copyright framework. When AI barfs GPL'd code snippets into a proprietary code base, that harms user freedom.

> and watched it in seconds spot LVM metadata corruption issues

you are drifting; this is not code generation. Fuzzy pattern matching has always been fair game.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#283

I’d love to see the authors of effusive praise of generative AI like this provide the proof of the unlimited powers of their tools in code. If GAI (or agents, or whatever comes next …) is so effective it should be quite simple to prove that by creating an AI only company and in short order producing huge amounts of serviceable code to do useful things. So far I’ve seen no sign of this, and the best use case seems to…

That's a strawman.

Nobody is saying it's "unlimited powers", that's your exaggeration.

And what you're proposing about an "AI only company" seems to be based on your misunderstanding.

What this article is saying is, you need the same number of senior developers, but now each one is essentially assisted by a few junior developers virtually for free.

That's huge. But saying you want to see an "AI only company" as "proof" has nothing to do with that.

And what you're describing -- "occasionally useful for exploring apis, odd bits of knowledge etc, but overall wasted more time than it has saved" -- is exactly what the author explicitly addresses at the top:

> If you were trying and failing to use an LLM for code 6 months ago, you’re not doing what most serious LLM-assisted coders are doing. People coding with LLMs today use agents...

The entire article is about how to use LLM's effectively. What kind of "proof" do you really want, when the article explains it all awfully clearly?

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#284
> but the code is shitty, like that of a junior developer > Does an intern cost $20/month? > Because that’s what Cursor.ai costs.

So sick of hearing comparisons between LLMs and Juniors, first of all are we really are seniors? After almost 20 years sometimes I still think I know nothing. Second, when I was a Junior just me being younger, fresher and with an eager learner attidute brought a net positive impact on the team I joined back then, that I still hang out with those people to this day and we still have fun joining new projects together. I'm so sick of these snobbish "seniors" that keep throwing rocks at younger and well prepared people

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#285

I’d love to see the authors of effusive praise of generative AI like this provide the proof of the unlimited powers of their tools in code. If GAI (or agents, or whatever comes next …) is so effective it should be quite simple to prove that by creating an AI only company and in short order producing huge amounts of serviceable code to do useful things. So far I’ve seen no sign of this, and the best use case seems to…

From what I've seen, it takes a deeply original thinker to get something great out of generative AI. But if you're a deeply original thinker, you're probably exceptional regardless of whether you are using AI or not.

Generative AI is too much of a blank canvas at the moment, and one that is always shifting. It's up to the user to find all the use cases, and even then in my experience it's just as likely to send me on a wild goose chase as it is to instantly solve my problem.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#286

I’d love to see the authors of effusive praise of generative AI like this provide the proof of the unlimited powers of their tools in code. If GAI (or agents, or whatever comes next …) is so effective it should be quite simple to prove that by creating an AI only company and in short order producing huge amounts of serviceable code to do useful things. So far I’ve seen no sign of this, and the best use case seems to…

Who said "unlimited powers", other than you? That seems like an intentional distortion of the article, which says "LLMs can write a large fraction of all the tedious code you’ll ever need to write". Doing most of my tedious work is very different than "unlimited powers".

I use AI to chew through tedious work all the time. In fact, I let an agent do some work just before I checked HN to read your claim that it can't do that. Everyone at my job does the same, perhaps modulo checking HN. But there's no 'unlimited power' to show you - we're just about 30% faster than we used to be.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#287

If they’re regurgitating what’s been learned, is there a risk of copyright/IP issues from whomever had the code used for training? Last time I checked, there’s a whole lotta lawyers in the us who’d like the business.

Most of the big AI vendors have liability policies in place where their lawyers are committed to step in and help you out if someone sues you for copyright infringement based on code their LLMs wrote for you. I think the term they use is "copyright shield".

OpenAI has that as point 14 in https://openai.com/policies/services-agreement/

Anthropic mention theirs here: https://www.anthropic.com/news/expanded-legal-protections-ap...

Here's the Google post: https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/ai-machine-learning/p...

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#288

I’d love to see the authors of effusive praise of generative AI like this provide the proof of the unlimited powers of their tools in code. If GAI (or agents, or whatever comes next …) is so effective it should be quite simple to prove that by creating an AI only company and in short order producing huge amounts of serviceable code to do useful things. So far I’ve seen no sign of this, and the best use case seems to…

I build tools all the time using AI tools that would have taken me 10x longer before. A couple examples below. The first example was a literal one shot of my dumping the full page html into cursor and asking it for the feature I needed. In using it today it already saved me over an hour of analysis time across the refunds I analyze. The second example includes using AI for better classifying text and having our support people better use their time to help customers. I could have probably made the second thing without LLMs but I didn’t have the skills. Here I was able to provide concrete value to our company and our customers.

https://github.com/Atlas-Authority/mpac-ui-improved https://moduscreate.com/blog/forum-monitoring-is-essential-b... (Pardon how marketing keyword stuffed the final post)

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#289
post #3

Machine translation and speech recognition. The state of the art for these is a multi-modal language model. I'm hearing impaired veering on deaf, and I use this technology all day every day. I wanted to watch an old TV series from the 1980s. There are no subtitles available. So I fed the show into a language model (Whisper) and now I have passable subtitles that allow me to watch the show. Am I the only one who remem…

I tried whisper with a movie from the 60's and it was a disaster.

Not sure if it was due to the poor quality of the sound, the fact people used to speak a bit differently 60 years ago or that 3 different languages were used (plot took place in France during WW2).

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#290
> "but you have no idea what the code is"

> Are you a vibe coding Youtuber? Can you not read code? If so: astute point. Otherwise: what the fuck is wrong with you? You’ve always been responsible for what you merge to main. You were five years go. And you are tomorrow, whether or not you use an LLM.

This identifies a critical lever: it doesn't matter that AI sometimes makes mistakes, hallucinates, makes poor architecture decisions. All that matters is your PR to master, because that's what you always have been and will continue to be judged on. Merging trash? That's on you! Failing to utilise new tools and taking 10x longer to make the feature? Also on you!

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