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I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

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Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#281
post #216

As an Australian, I find it crazy that getting food from a cafeteria at school is the norm in the US. In Australia you bring food from home 90% of the time. On special occasions or every now and then you order lunch from the canteen. It seems almost against American individualism to have a communal meal where everyone is served up the same food and sit indoors in a dining hall. Maybe it is just strange to me but I ca…

Back in the 80s, everyone packed a lunch when I was growing up in Australia. One of my brother's classmates was of Malay background, and we were fascinated by the lunches he'd bring in, including a thermos containing fried rice which would still be hot when he'd eat it at lunch.

America is a place where we don't like the idea of people going hungry. The government provides a great deal of food assistance; 13% of the country receives food stamps. Government policy is that every American should be getting at least $291 of food; if providing yourself that would be more than 30% of your income after expenses like rent, the government makes up the difference. Groceries are cheap, relatively speaking - they're sure cheaper than what they cost in Australia. We have extra programs for pregnant/nursing moms which provide food like milk, eggs, beans, and fresh produce, or if they can't or don't want to nurse, we provide infant formula for them. (Income based, but about half of new moms qualify, although in turn only around half of those new moms bother to take advantage of it.) We have excellent food banks that (at least in my area) are well-stocked. They currently have "expanded eligibility" (meaning they don't screen you when you come in) because they aren't running out of food.

We don't like the idea of kids at school going hungry either, so first we had school lunches, and now we have school breakfasts in places. We also have "summer" food programs. My state decided to use the federal funding for this for "summer EBT", which means food stamp amounts go up by what would be the cost of providing school lunches. (Americans skip out of school for 3+ months in the summer.) The general trend is towards free lunches for everyone, instead of making it income eligible.

Whether any of this is a good idea is another question. We don't seem to be a terribly healthy nation, and we eat way too much ultra-processed food which does not seem to be good for us. Big Food and Big Ag have an incredibly strong grip on government. The amount of money involved is big money. To give you an idea of the dollars we're talking, the amount of food stamps spent in America on soda was around $10 billion. You can go ahead and guess which corporation lobbied to expand soda to be eligible for purchase with food stamps.

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> gee, this is such a straightforward issue we could actually solve Shifting the cost from the parents who had the kids onto the taxpayers is not solving the problem. It's making people who didn't cause the problem subsidize the people who did cause the problem. That's not solving the problem. It's making sure there will be more problems.

Without kids living and being born and learning and becoming productive members of society your lifestyle would not exist and current economic models would collapse in a handful of years. You are shooting everyone including yourself in the foot because you personally don't need to walk places.

> and becoming productive members of society

Child labor was legal until 1930. It has been a part of society for longer than it hasn't. I think your calculus is a little off.

> your lifestyle would not exist

Because /some/ children struggle to eat enough? Which, again, has been a norm in our society for longer than it hasn't. We didn't fully get rid of horses as beasts of burden in agriculture until the 1950s.

> you personally don't need to walk places.

Carrying everyone who can't walk is not a universal good. Particularly when some of those people can't walk because of a tiny, temporary, and highly solvable problem.

Now you have people who make it their career to carry people. Their motivations are to carry as many people as is possible. If we actually made it so no one had to be carried they would be out a job.

We live in a world of odd incentives. There is no point at which abandoning the middle way will benefit you, regardless of how pretty those ideas sound.

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"it is a total moral bankruptcy for a society to have their children starve for their parents dysfunction." Sounds like child services should take those children then? If they can't apply for the lunches, then surely they aren't getting food at home, nor the proper medical care.

Lose your job, lose your children. Great policy ideas from the thoughtful HN crowd, as always.

That's not a real argument. There are plenty of assistance programs, including free school lunches.

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#284
South Korea started dabbling in free school lunches around 2001 - when a few schools started it. It gained momentum, and then it became a huge debate in 2011, when Seoul's mayor somehow decided he hated free lunches so much that he arranged a referendum, and said he would quit if people didn't agree with him on the matter. He did quit.

Fast forward to 2025, and now free school lunches are nearly ubiquitous. Once people experience it, few want to go back. Because it's a much more efficient and hassle-free system.

Yes, of course the money is coming from tax: in other words, if you're a middle-class parent, nothing changed. You're still paying for your kids' lunch one way or the other. But you don't have to pay for a gratuitous system of bureaucracy that keeps track of which kids' parents are making how much money, and whether each kid is "eligible" to eat lunch today, so your money is actually being used more efficiently with less overhead.

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#285

On the off chance you're interested in school lunches I highly recommend watching videos of Japanese school lunches on YouTube. There's a bunch out there now and if you were raised in the American system it will probably blow your mind. The idea that lunches can be freshly made, on site, out of healthy ingredients and children are active participants in serving and cleaning up is just crazy. When I encountered it for…

> The idea that lunches can be freshly made, on site, out of healthy ingredients and children Excellent garden path sentence.

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Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#286
post #186

My poor country (Moldova) just implemented free lunches for kids in primary and middle schools. What is the reason US doesn’t have this already at federal level?

In the US, schools are managed at the state level, not the federal level. There are occasional grants given to states to run certain school programs, but states really run the show. Which is why I'm actually not sure why certain states don't do this. Like richer states like Maryland, Virginia, New York, California.

California claims to be the first state to provide free school meals to all children in 2022-2023 (https://calbudgetcenter.org/resources/universal-school-meals...)

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#287

On the off chance you're interested in school lunches I highly recommend watching videos of Japanese school lunches on YouTube. There's a bunch out there now and if you were raised in the American system it will probably blow your mind. The idea that lunches can be freshly made, on site, out of healthy ingredients and children are active participants in serving and cleaning up is just crazy. When I encountered it for…

> The idea that lunches can be freshly made, on site, out of healthy ingredients and children are active participants in serving and cleaning up is just crazy.

> When I encountered it for the first time I felt like a big part of my childhood had been sold to the lowest bidder.

....I share the sentiment, but I also see the chasm between the requirements to get to what's desired, & what's actually given to meet those requirements (which is almost nothing).

To have this program exist requires children that can be trusted to not waste the food that they're given, to behave, & to learn about preparing their own meals.

It's a bootstrapping problem, trust problem, & expectations problem, all at once.

Japan was able to do this by pressuring its citizens & youth to pay the cultural toll needed to get there, and it was a toll that *everyone* had to pay into. No exceptions.

Whilst there can be pockets of local communities that can do this, the probability that the same thing can happen *everywhere* in the US is close to zero, given the cultural emphasis placed on individualism.

It is also from this emphasis of individual exceptionalism where there can be no guarantees that *everyone* will pay the cultural toll. It must be *everyone*, or this proposal won't work: It'll just be another form of subsidization by another name.

------

Note: This doesn't mean that it can't happen, just that the amount of effort needed to get there is monumental, and that certain axioms have to be relaxed significantly to do so.

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#288
post #186

My poor country (Moldova) just implemented free lunches for kids in primary and middle schools. What is the reason US doesn’t have this already at federal level?

In the US, schools are managed at the state level, not the federal level. There are occasional grants given to states to run certain school programs, but states really run the show. Which is why I'm actually not sure why certain states don't do this. Like richer states like Maryland, Virginia, New York, California.

>Which is why I'm actually not sure why certain states don't do this. Like richer states like Maryland, Virginia, New York, California.

Not sure about other states, but...

All NYC public school students can have free meals[0]:

"New York City Public Schools offers free breakfast, lunch and afterschool meals to all NYC public school students during the school year."

As for NY State -- well, better late than never[1]:

"Universal School Meals: Governor Hochul Announces Free Breakfast and Lunch for More Than 2.7 Million Students in New York as Part of the 2025 State of the State"

To be fair, free and reduced price meals were already available across NY state, but with a means test[2]:

   The School Breakfast and Lunch Programs are federal programs providing free, 
   reduced or full priced breakfast and lunch at participating schools 
   throughout New York State. In New York State the New York State Department of 
   Education administers these programs, and local schools operate the programs. 
   The meals are the same for all children regardless of payment category, and 
   schools are not permitted to identify students who get free or reduced-price 
   meals.


   Eligibility Meal Categories  Eligibility
   Free  Income up to 130% of poverty ($39,000 for a family of 4 annually)
   Reduced (no charge to student)  Income up to 185% of poverty ($55,500 for a family of 4 annually)
   Full price* - paid by family  Income over 185% of poverty ($55,500 for a family of 4 annually)

[0] https://www.schools.nyc.gov/school-life/food

[1] https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/universal-school-meals-gove...

[2] https://otda.ny.gov/workingfamilies/schoollunch.asp

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> gee, this is such a straightforward issue we could actually solve Shifting the cost from the parents who had the kids onto the taxpayers is not solving the problem. It's making people who didn't cause the problem subsidize the people who did cause the problem. That's not solving the problem. It's making sure there will be more problems.

I will blow your fucking mind. The entire economic future of you and all the taxpayers depends on those kids growing up. Our entire economic structure is a ponzi scheme at global scale. It depends on kids growing up and cashing into the stock market so people can cash out of their 401ks. So why not ensure those little gremlins and nice and plump when they grow up so we can retire more easily.

That's your argument? I have to finance other people's kids because otherwise the ponzi scheme collapses?

Let it fall. No more ponzi schemes.

Re: I decided to pay off a school’s lunch debt

#290

New York State just passed universal free lunch and breakfast for public school students. Of all the things that we spend our tax dollars on, this feels like a no brainer. Making sure children are fed should be at the top of the list.

Stuff like this seems like such a dividing line to me. Like, in theory when people believe things that are morally wrong, I want to reach out to them with compassion and respect and try to gently persuade them to my side because we're all, in theory, on the same side. But if you don't want kids to be fed, I really am not sure we're actually on the same side any more and I really am not sure what to do with that.
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