Earlier quoted context omitted.
I want to assume that the GTA developers did this hack because it was faster than floating point division on the Playstation 2 or something. But knowing they were able to they were able to blow up loading GTA5 by 5 minutes by just parsing json with sscanf, I don't have much hope.
IIRC the whole parsing performance issue was because the original code was written for the SP campaign of GTA5 that only had a handful of objects to parse data for. That was barely a blip in terms of performance impact and AFAIK was written years before GTAOnline was made (where it became an issue - and even then only became an issue much after GTAOnline was first made). Writing some simple code that works with the d…
How a 20 year old bug in GTA San Andreas surfaced in Windows 11 24H2
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Re: How a 20 year old bug in GTA San Andreas surfaced in Windows 11 24H2
#282IMHO, if something isn’t part of the contract, it should be randomized. Eg if iteration order of maps isn’t guaranteed in your language, then your language should go out of its way to randomize it. Otherwise, you end up with brittle code: code that works fine until it doesn’t.
There are various compiler options like -ftrivial-auto-var-init to initialize uninitialized variables to specific (or random) values in some situations, but overall, randomizing (or zeroing) the full content of the stack in each function call would be a horrendous performance regression and isn't done for this reason.
This compiler option causes the compiler to emit a call to a stack probe function to ensure that a sufficient amount of stack space is available.
Rather than just probe once for each stack page used, you can substitute a function that *FILLS* the stack frame with a particular value - something like 0xBAADF00D - one could set the value to anything you wanted at runtime.
This would get you similar behaviour to gcc/clang's -ftrivial-auto-var-init
Windows has started to auto-initialize most stack variables in the Windows kernel and several other areas.
The following types are automatically initialized:
Scalars (arrays, pointers, floats)
Arrays of pointers
Structures (plain-old-data structures)
The following are not automatically initialized:
Volatile variables
Arrays of anything other than pointers (i.e. array of int, array of structures, etc.)
Classes that are not plain-old-data
During initial testing where we forcibly initialized all types of data on the stack we saw performance regressions of over 10% in several key scenarios.
With POD structures only, performance was more reasonable. Compiler optimizations to eliminate redundant stores (both inside basic blocks and between basic blocks) were able to further drop the regression caused by POD structures from observable to noise-level for most tests.
We plan on revisiting zero initializing all types (especially now that our optimizer has more powerful optimizations), we just haven’t gotten to it yet.
see https://web.archive.org/web/20200518153645/https://msrc-blog...Re: How a 20 year old bug in GTA San Andreas surfaced in Windows 11 24H2
#283My takeaway, speaking as someone who leans towards functional programming and immutability, is "this is yet another example of a mutability problem that could never happen in a functional context" (so, for example, this bug would have never been created by Rust unless it was deeply misused)
The constant rust evangelism on this site is such a turn off from actually wanting to use the language.
The best engineers I know are open to everything and played with almost every tool/language/whatever to form (sorry) informed opinions about them. They often know what they are talking about, and they choose the best tool for the job.
Re: How a 20 year old bug in GTA San Andreas surfaced in Windows 11 24H2
#284My takeaway, speaking as someone who leans towards functional programming and immutability, is "this is yet another example of a mutability problem that could never happen in a functional context" (so, for example, this bug would have never been created by Rust unless it was deeply misused)
Rust protects you from external file data you read being incorrect? That's one hell of a language!
Re: How a 20 year old bug in GTA San Andreas surfaced in Windows 11 24H2
#285Surprised to see the return value of sscanf being ignored, that seems like a pretty rookie mistake, and this bug would never have made it out of the original programmer's system if they had bothered to check it.
FTA:
I have a likely explanation for why Rockstar made this specific mistake in the data to begin with – in Vice City, Skimmer was defined as a boat, and therefore did not have those values defined by design! When in San Andreas they changed Skimmer’s vehicle type to a plane, someone forgot to add those now-required extra parameters. Since this game seldom verifies the completeness of its data, this mistake simply slipped under the radar.
So the original code (or at least a working code + data version) in GTA Vice City had no visible problems, at least with the Skimmer object, since the vehicles.ide file had the correct number of values for the Skimmer boat object.Someone changed the Skimmer object from a boat to a plane for GTA San Andreas, BUT they DID NOT update the object to have the REQUIRED wheel values for a plane object.
Now the GTA code is expecting more values than it gets.
The vehicles.ide wasn't validated for correctness after the Skimmer object change to plane. Maybe there are more gotchas in that file...
At least users can fix the problem with a text editor instead of waiting and hoping that RockStar would fix the problem and release an update.
Re: How a 20 year old bug in GTA San Andreas surfaced in Windows 11 24H2
#286Earlier quoted context omitted.
What happened to him?
https://randomascii.wordpress.com/2024/10/01/life-death-and-... https://randomascii.wordpress.com/2016/10/17/vestibular-dysf...
i need a hug.
Re: How a 20 year old bug in GTA San Andreas surfaced in Windows 11 24H2
#287Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's not accurate. Generally, game console "debug" configurations aren't "true" debug like most people think of -- optimizations are still globally enabled, but the build generally has a number of debug systems enabled that naturally require the use of a devkit. Devkits, especially back then, generally had 2-3x as much memory as retail systems -- so you'd happily sacrifice framerate during feature development to ha…
From GP: > (with checks for things like this enabled) You can (and could) easily compile an optimized build with debug symbols to track down sources of issues, but catching a bug like this would likely take a dynamic checker like Valgrind or MSan, which do not allow for any optimizations if you want to avoid false negatives, and add even more overhead on top of that. (Valgrind with its full processor-level virtualiza…
MSan didn’t exist at the time and valgrind doesn’t work on a ps2.
Neither of those are necessary to find this bug as it could be found using a stomp allocator if you’re a developer on the project at the time.
Re: How a 20 year old bug in GTA San Andreas surfaced in Windows 11 24H2
#288Re: How a 20 year old bug in GTA San Andreas surfaced in Windows 11 24H2
#289Earlier quoted context omitted.
The constant rust evangelism on this site is such a turn off from actually wanting to use the language.
If your attitude is just "I'm not going to use abc because too many people say it's good", without even just trying that out first hand to verify those claims, I don't think you can go very far in your technical skills. The best engineers I know are open to everything and played with almost every tool/language/whatever to form (sorry) informed opinions about them. They often know what they are talking about, and they…
So the person in question is irritated at an interesting blog post about a 20+ year old game being used as another opportunity to push Rust. So for starters Rust obviously wasn't around at the time the game was developed so it's not like Rockstar made the wrong call in implementing this using C++. But more importantly I don't think Rust is currently in a state where studios can justify using it to develop AAA games. They'd need big teams of developers with Rust experience who are well-versed in the sort of problems encountered during game development. You'd need battle-tested build/deployment processes that allow you to produce the binaries for Playstation/Xbox (not too dissimilar CPU/GPU wise, but each with their own platform-level quirks no doubt) and Switch hardware - potentially across multiple generations. You'd need various platforms' OS hooks and network-service APIs available. Additionally you'd need to convince the guys with the money that instead of spending $projected on a game, you'd need to spend $projected+$mystery_number when they take the plunge and write their first game in Rust with new tools etc rather than C++ and everything they currently use. The gaming industry is nothing if not ruthless at making money, if it made financial sense they'd be moving to Rust already - if it will make sense in the future, they'll be planning to do it.
You've been charitable in your read of the original comment, taking it as "this family of problem does not exist in Rust" - and for what it's worth I agree and really value this. However this other commenter has presumably seen it as a bit more naive and missing the bigger picture, and in combination with other similar experiences is questioning the value of these of glowing testimonies.
In addition, a lot of people saying "this is great, this is the future!" doesn't necessarily make something good automatically. For about 5+ years here on HN we had legions of people responding "blockchains will fix this" to almost every problem and very confidently declaring the rest of us are luddites for not getting it. I'm obviously not saying Rust is the same, I'm just trying to show that not following the crowd doesn't automatically mean you're the kind who will always fall behind.
As for how to avoid this? I dunno if you can undo the zillions of RIIR comments that have been floating around since Rust appeared on the scene, but if I was evangelising or even just strongly recommending it I'd just keep in mind that my target audience is maybe sick of seeing the same kinds of comments and would be a bit more creative and/or sensitive in approaching the topic.
Re: How a 20 year old bug in GTA San Andreas surfaced in Windows 11 24H2
#290Earlier quoted context omitted.
He's a total legend, yet apparently he's never met Bill Gates in person from what he said in an interview in the Dave's Garage YouTube channel a few years ago. You'd think that someone who's been that prominent for so long in the company would have been invited to a company dinner where he was present or something.
Microsoft's a big company, and billg "stepped down" in 2000. Raymond is still working, so they overlap less than may appear.