The Decline of the U.S. Machine-Tool Industry and Prospects for Recovery (1994) • Hacker News Board

Re: The Decline of the U.S. Machine-Tool Industry and Prospects for Recovery (1994)

#281

Post by rapnie » Wed, Apr 09, 2025, 3:19 AM UTC

consumer451 wrote: post #254

lesuorac wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an economic theory - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism The general idea is that when you buy stuff you're losing wealth so if you never buy anything then you never get poorer. Since we constantly dig gold up from the ground we still get richer over time even if nobody buys our stuff. This is also why its importantly to gain colonies (Greenland/ Canada) or mineral rights from other countries so that the…

My main concern is that de-globalizing trade will remove a large barrier for real kinetic war. Bombing your economic partner is generally a dumb move, and that has been pretty nice for humanity in the last ~50 years.

> pretty nice for humanity in the last ~50 years.

Case in point, the EU with its internal markets.

Re: The Decline of the U.S. Machine-Tool Industry and Prospects for Recovery (1994)

#282

Post by mmooss » Wed, Apr 09, 2025, 3:19 AM UTC

blululu wrote: post #256

slg wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the gist is: When you can manufacture ships, you can also manufacture warships. When you can manufacture warships, you can protect your economy. The counter to this thinking is that if you intertwine your economic wellbeing with your "enemy" to the point that neither side wants to sever the relationship, you won't need to build many warships. Reversing course back towards isolation in order to give yourself the opti…

In 2020 during the largest public health crisis in a century, non-woven respiratory masks were found to be an effective intervention. The country that manufactured 90% of the world's respiratory masks took care of itself first and foremost at the expense of all other countries. You can't blame them for doing so, but you can avoid this scenario repeating itself in the future.

> The country that manufactured 90% of the world's respiratory masks took care of itself first and foremost at the expense of all other countries. You can't blame them for doing so

Yes you can. People have a moral obligation to help others, including when they have to sacrifice, and they do it all the time. People make sacrifices all the time for the greater good.

In fact, many of the extreme self-interest capitalist crowd argues that others should make sacrifices for the greater good of 'the economy' (i.e., for the good of the extreme capitalist). Musk has argued that people need to sacrifice so the economy will be better in some unspecified future.

The new commonplace phrase that 'you can't blame them' is an embarassment. I don't blame you for using it because it's so common, but it's like a core, fundamental belief that humans should not and cannot care anything about anyone else, (or often, anyone but their family). Obviously false and entire, widespread moral beliefs are built on the opposite.

Re: The Decline of the U.S. Machine-Tool Industry and Prospects for Recovery (1994)

#283

Post by Spooky23 » Wed, Apr 09, 2025, 3:19 AM UTC

WillPostForFood wrote: post #243

no_wizard wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>nowhere do we want to isolate as a country. Look at all the jobless Americans in once thriving industrial cities. Generations left without pensions or skills all because we outsource our workers to other countries. And we didn't pay for re-skilling, re-training, re-education. We didn't give them welfare benefits to hold over while they learned these new things. We did near nothing, and expected these areas simply to…

And we didn't pay for re-skilling, re-training, re-education. This was the old "learn to code" moment. You are going to take a 50 year old auto worker with a high school degree and train them to do what? We have tried it, we have invested in it, is just doesn't work well. Trade Adjustment Assistance (TAA) Workforce Investment Act (WIA) Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act (WIOA) American Recovery and Reinvestment…

I just went to the retirement party of one at my company. He worked for Ford, got retrained as an MCSE years ago and was a SQL DBA.

Re: The Decline of the U.S. Machine-Tool Industry and Prospects for Recovery (1994)

#284

Post by mmooss » Wed, Apr 09, 2025, 3:20 AM UTC

knubie wrote: post #255

slg wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the gist is: When you can manufacture ships, you can also manufacture warships. When you can manufacture warships, you can protect your economy. The counter to this thinking is that if you intertwine your economic wellbeing with your "enemy" to the point that neither side wants to sever the relationship, you won't need to build many warships. Reversing course back towards isolation in order to give yourself the opti…

> The counter to this thinking is that if you intertwine your economic wellbeing with your "enemy" to the point that neither side wants to sever the relationship You mean like how Europe has made themselves completely dependent on Russia for energy? How's that working out?

You've picked one example, but there are many other examples of it working - such as the EU itself. Before the predecessor of the EU was formed, you may recall two massive, Europe-wide wars in half a century.

Re: The Decline of the U.S. Machine-Tool Industry and Prospects for Recovery (1994)

#285

Post by palmotea » Wed, Apr 09, 2025, 3:21 AM UTC

drivebyhooting wrote: post #154

palmotea wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We’re cooked then. To give you some perspective I had some Chinese sales reps visiting my shop, they saw us working on some designs and casually asked about working hours i told them about 40hs/wk they laughed and said “in China engineers work 12hs a day 7 days a week”. Oh, the fallacy that grinding harder and longer leads to more and better results. Do you think you do your best work when you're exhausted? Also, 9…

Deepseek begs to differ?

> Deepseek begs to differ?

Please not a non-sequitur like "some Chinese grind, so here's some thing from China, therefore grinding is good."

Show me the reason for Deepseek's success is people grinding for longer hours.

Re: The Decline of the U.S. Machine-Tool Industry and Prospects for Recovery (1994)

#286

Post by Spooky23 » Wed, Apr 09, 2025, 3:22 AM UTC

amluto wrote: post #258

Aloisius wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We manufacture more today than at any time in history. We just do it with a whole lot fewer people. Have jobs been lost to outsourcing? Sure. But far more jobs have been lost to automation and the elimination of obsolete industries. While companies might have avoided investing in automation through the use of cheap labor in other countries, there is little doubt that will change if they re-shore.

Counterpoint: as far as I know, 30 years ago, a small US company could invent a consumer good and credibly manufacture it here in small to moderate quantities. Today, not so much. If you want an economical contract manufacturer to help you manufacture your product using modern tooling and access to the engineers who know how to set up those tools, as far as I know, you mostly need to look outside the US.

No way. You need to go back to the 1960s, and that’s a stretch.

The age of the mega corp killed all of that stuff. NYC had a few thousand factories, all crushed by bigger, subsidized by tax policy competitors in the US south and then offshored.

Re: The Decline of the U.S. Machine-Tool Industry and Prospects for Recovery (1994)

#287

Post by dalemhurley » Wed, Apr 09, 2025, 3:23 AM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #274

WillPostForFood wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question isn't whether maximum global free trade maximizes efficiency. The question is whether maximizing global economic efficiency creates optimal outcomes for a nation, for groups within a nation, or for individuals in the nation. It is clearly a mixed bag, so there is pushback. Ask these questions. Besides maximizing monetary efficiency: Does free trade maximize a nation's resiliency? Does free trade maximize…

With respect to the US: - We’re the richest nation on the planet and have been until recently been adept in response to many types of disasters. - Unemployment has been The idiocy of conflict with China is just that. We’re better and richer together.

Too right, the bigger and harder issue is the distribution and concentration of wealth. It hard for someone who is living below the poverty line in the USA to feel they are benefiting from living in the richness nation in the world.

Re: The Decline of the U.S. Machine-Tool Industry and Prospects for Recovery (1994)

#288

Post by mmooss » Wed, Apr 09, 2025, 3:23 AM UTC

WillPostForFood wrote: post #234

SideQuark wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it provides a tool to see how and why the “nuanced, appropriate version” is actually wrong. When one limits the choices for purchases or sales, one reduces efficiency, whether it’s limiting to products made at your home, in your city, in your state, or even in your country. It’s failed for so many centuries across hundreds of countries and attempts that it’s not even a question except among politicians stoking fe…

The question isn't whether maximum global free trade maximizes efficiency. The question is whether maximizing global economic efficiency creates optimal outcomes for a nation, for groups within a nation, or for individuals in the nation. It is clearly a mixed bag, so there is pushback. Ask these questions. Besides maximizing monetary efficiency: Does free trade maximize a nation's resiliency? Does free trade maximize…

That's picking a strawperson to debate with - extreme, absolutist free trade, which is obviously absurd and nobody has ever seriously advocated or tried to implement.

You forgot maximizing income on the list. The others are important too.

> security

Far more of an issue after the nationalists destroy the order that provided peace for generations, the most peaceful world in history.

Re: The Decline of the U.S. Machine-Tool Industry and Prospects for Recovery (1994)

#289

Post by Spooky23 » Wed, Apr 09, 2025, 3:23 AM UTC

banqjls wrote: post #215

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US can barely get basic medical supplies to much of its population outside of a health crisis - not because of direct supply chain issues, but because the system is designed to put corporate profits over adequate service provision. And in the not so general case, over national security. Is manufacturing the real problem here? Or is it a symptom of decades of systemic mismanagement of opportunity by a culture that…

Way to misdirect a totally valid point

How, it’s the elephant in the room.

Re: The Decline of the U.S. Machine-Tool Industry and Prospects for Recovery (1994)

#290

Post by mmooss » Wed, Apr 09, 2025, 3:24 AM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #274

WillPostForFood wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question isn't whether maximum global free trade maximizes efficiency. The question is whether maximizing global economic efficiency creates optimal outcomes for a nation, for groups within a nation, or for individuals in the nation. It is clearly a mixed bag, so there is pushback. Ask these questions. Besides maximizing monetary efficiency: Does free trade maximize a nation's resiliency? Does free trade maximize…

With respect to the US: - We’re the richest nation on the planet and have been until recently been adept in response to many types of disasters. - Unemployment has been The idiocy of conflict with China is just that. We’re better and richer together.

That's the problem with nationalism. The goal is not peace, freedom, and prosperity (i.e., life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness); it's your group's power. Otherwise, why disrupt the extremely successful international order?