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Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

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Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#281

Post by cmrdporcupine »

hayst4ck wrote: post #250

It's the most important time in human history to protest/fight unchecked power because it's likely the last era of humanity that we are going to be able to. We are getting to the point where the technology that fuels oppression, including extremely pervasive surveillance, privatized intelligence services with no oversight, scalable AI agents that do as they are told, and crowd "maiming" or other forceful dispersal te…

Was expressing this fear to my wife and kids the other day. Ubiquitous cameras everywhere (like in the UK for many years) and other surveillance technology has always been a concern but had scaling limits -- but when you combine it now with the cheap ease of machine learning technologies we have a serious problem.

And then consider drones, mobile devices. And then mass disinformation and/or disruption via LLMs.

As a long time advocate of old school mass action, and a believe in active protest movements as part of a healthy democracy, I have a strong feeling of unease. I've had it since about 9/11, but it's now really bad.

e.g. if you know, with certainty, that heading out to a protest could lead to your instant termination from your job because a drone passed over and took a photo and identified all 100,000 people in the crowd instantly.. would you still go?

Or if having been identified, some malevolent actor could just turn around and mass produce fake content from you and others in the crowd, to discredit you?

Shivers.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#282

Post by perching_aix »

CaffeineLD50 wrote: post #257
perching_aix wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An argument with which they could win a scenario conveniently tailored by you, that you have arbitrary control over, and can twist until their argument is rendered senseless again? > I would prefer protesters not be killed by oppressive governments. I guess you prefer tanks and guns. On a tangential note, may I ask your stance on the Russian invasion of Ukraine? I'd guess you're also a great proponent of the "peace"…

Whoa, great tangent. I'm saying I'd rather see people robbed of their human rights by non lethal force over lethal force. There's * dozens* of mass killings that prove its not uncommon. You have some wingnut tangent about Ukraine and assumptions that since I don't ride your high horse I'm a bad guy of fantastical proportions. Its weak minded thinkers like you that prop up the evil cabals of this world. Feel free to c…

Engaging in conversations with people like you is a severe intellectual defect of mine constantly on the forefront of my mind, don't worry.

> There's * dozens* of mass killings that prove its not uncommon.

Do you know what are there dozens of examples of also? Protests that didn't result in lethal weapons being used, or weapons similar to LRAD and ADS. But that doesn't fit the convenient headcanon you oh so desperately want to corner people into "debating" with you, so that's of little concern I imagine.

You keep citing unicorns on my end, yet the only thing that seems to matter to you are your own fantasies, where options other than being Tienanmanned or being sound cannoned don't exist. No, sound cannons shall be fucking awesome because they do not directly kill, and indirect kills don't matter probably because of some other tirade about unicorns. Permanent damage also doesn't matter for similar reasons. It's all black and white, and the point is that everyone else is wrong and just a pussy, and you're badass and right. Congratulations. A real thinker of our time.

> since I don't ride your high horse I'm a bad guy of fantastical proportions

Oh, no. I think of you way lower than just a "bad guy", in good part because a language model demonstrates better reasoning, intellectual honesty, and self-reflection abilities than you do, all the while not deflecting in a hilariously performative manner to accusing the other of moralization.

> Its weak minded thinkers like you that prop up the evil cabals of this world.

Mirror. Now.

You're the one taking the stance of "but at least they didn't die so it's okay', you're the one preemptively victimizing yourself by people who dare to fault their govt at all, and then YOU HAVE THE GALL to call such people the enablers, and the weak minded. "Bad guy" my ass. You yourself are the cabal.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#283

Post by perching_aix »

CaffeineLD50 wrote: post #262
perching_aix wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, just without the fairies and the unicorns (or the Dubai travel destination). Or even the retiring.

Yes I want fantasy unicorns too. Until then let's APPLAUD people not being killed in a protest, m'kay? Non lethal force is a good alternative, even when used for evil purposes.

This dilemma continues to exist in your own mind only.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#284

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

hayst4ck wrote: post #250

It's the most important time in human history to protest/fight unchecked power because it's likely the last era of humanity that we are going to be able to. We are getting to the point where the technology that fuels oppression, including extremely pervasive surveillance, privatized intelligence services with no oversight, scalable AI agents that do as they are told, and crowd "maiming" or other forceful dispersal te…

>it's likely the last era of humanity

No. Just no. No matter what what the thing is. It just isn't.

That's not a reason to NOT protest/fight unchecked power. It just isn't the reason to do it.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#285

Post by lurk2 »

_heimdall wrote: post #258
lurk2 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As explained in the military manual of the Netherlands, the prohibition of the use of riot control agents as a method of warfare is inspired by the fact that use of tear gas, for example, in armed conflict “runs the danger of provoking the use of other more dangerous chemicals”. A party which is being attacked by riot control agents may think it is being attacked by deadly chemical weapons and resort to the use of…

Can you elaborate on your point here? It seems that you're linking to documentation of where the exception was made, but I don't think the existence of that exception was in question here. I don't have a dog in this fight as it were, but the GGP comment was taking issue with the exception allowing a tool that would violate the Geneva Convention in war being used against civilians in a context where law enforcement co…

> A party which is being attacked by riot control agents may think it is being attacked by deadly chemical weapons and resort to the use of chemical weapons. It is this danger of escalation that States sought to avert by agreeing to prohibit the use of riot control agents as a method of warfare in armed conflict.

The implication of the statement “These are weapons that would violate the Geneva convention, but we're okay with them to disperse a crowd.” is that riot agents are considered too barbaric to be deployed even in war, which is not the reason these agents are prohibited in wartime use. Instead, there was a worry that it would be too difficult to differentiate riot agents from chemical weapons (e.g. chlorine or mustard gas), which could lead the party attacked with riot agents to retaliate with chemical weapons.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#286

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

impossiblefork wrote: post #117
tpm wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be rational if you would think killing a few (or a lot of) protesters will intimidate the rest of the country into submission. It didn't, but it could have.

But nobody thinks that way. If they can kill your friends, they can round you up afterwards and kill you. Once it gets to that point, there's no reason not to immediately organize a military response.

>But nobody thinks that way.

And yet history shows many (dozens?) of instance where that's exactly what most people thought.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#287

Post by martin-t »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #141
__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were at a protest that was starting to get a bit rowdy and somebody used one of these on you, what would you do? I'd either come back prepared for actual violence, or switch from protest to sabotage. It just screams "escalation" to me.

> If you were at a protest that was starting to get a bit rowdy and somebody used one of these on you, what would you do? Leave. The moment it turns into a riot you’re doing damage to your cause. (If you’re in a protest and see hooligans, restrain them.)

This thinking is dangerous and wrong.

You cannot fight against violence without violence. Violence is most effective when it's implied/threatened, before it is materialized.

The goal of protests are:

1) To serve as a show of force (they are literally called demonstrations in some languages because you demonstrate your ability to organize and act - large numbers of people are capable of large amounts of violence).

2) To paint your side as the victim by provoking an overreaction.

Westerners often think that 2 is sufficient because they live in democracies where a large part of the government is also unwilling to use violence and become the aggressor. But against a dictator who is willing to use as much violence against the people as is available to him, 2 alone is worthless.

Goal 2 only serves to maximize the number of people willing to rise up but the real goal is to break the enemy's will to fight. Either to make the dictator lose his nerve and flee or to kill him because corpses don't have a will.

The point is it's a delicate balancing act to paint yourself as victim/weak to get more support and angry/strong to make the dictator back down. Westerners focus on the first part because it works against their governments but against greater oppression, you will not get anywhere without actual will to fight and kill.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#288

Post by NewJazz »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #248
NewJazz wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AIUI they are mainly banned because they could lead to escalations in chemical weapons usage. If your enemy uses tear gas vs cs gas, it could be hard to tell right away and you might feel pressure to use all the tools you have available (including lethal chemical weapons) vs. Play by the rules. Of course if you are fighting a real war, there is probably going to be chem weapons used. It happened in Syria. It is happe…

> Geneva convention is wishful thinking. It is a convention. It is useful for applying pressure. It certainly seems to reduce their use. You could as well say that laws against murder or theft or whatever are wishful thinking.

Murder is generally punished. Unless you spew pollutants with known biological harm leading to numerous cancerous deaths and cover it up and pay off enough politicians. Then it is generally rewarded or at least tolerated.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#289

Post by jackyinger »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #284
hayst4ck wrote: post #250

It's the most important time in human history to protest/fight unchecked power because it's likely the last era of humanity that we are going to be able to. We are getting to the point where the technology that fuels oppression, including extremely pervasive surveillance, privatized intelligence services with no oversight, scalable AI agents that do as they are told, and crowd "maiming" or other forceful dispersal te…

>it's likely the last era of humanity No. Just no. No matter what what the thing is. It just isn't. That's not a reason to NOT protest/fight unchecked power. It just isn't the reason to do it.

That is a pretty disingenuous quotation, you cut it mid sentence destroying the context:

> It's the most important time in human history to protest/fight unchecked power because it's likely the last era of humanity that we are going to be able to.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#290

Post by vkou »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #141
__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were at a protest that was starting to get a bit rowdy and somebody used one of these on you, what would you do? I'd either come back prepared for actual violence, or switch from protest to sabotage. It just screams "escalation" to me.

> If you were at a protest that was starting to get a bit rowdy and somebody used one of these on you, what would you do? Leave. The moment it turns into a riot you’re doing damage to your cause. (If you’re in a protest and see hooligans, restrain them.)

So, the moment a single cop lobs a tear gas can at a peaceful protest, is the moment when the protest starts doing damage to its cause?

That would explain why they seem to be so eager to employ violence against peaceful protestors.

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