Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Is Google going to avoid interviewing anyone from a HBCU now? Why won't they? It's not like black people can't be hired anymore. It's just they have to compete like everyone else without being treated like disabled people.
Imagine that someone decides recruiting needs a budget cut and shrinks the travel budget a bit. Managers shift to local career fairs instead. No one notices the complete lack of bay area HBCUs and a couple years down the road the pipeline is filled with people from Stanford with internships and internal recommendations competing against people from HBCUs that don't have either of them. One of these populations will l…
Google kills diversity hiring targets
281–290 of 300 posts
Re: Google kills diversity hiring targets
#282https://archive.is/6O8L5
Shows > You have been blocked. Only me?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/technology/tech-companies/google-k...
No Javascript, text-only:
https://assets.msn.com/content/view/v2/Detail/en-in/AA1ytY6x
Re: Google kills diversity hiring targets
#283Earlier quoted context omitted.
> There's an applicant queue not under their control Not 100%, sure, but that's far different from 0%. Which job fairs do your company reps attend? Is there a built-in bias causing you to miss out on good candidates? Can employees recommend a friend as a potential recruit? What effect does that have on promoting favoritism over a better candidate? > What you're suggesting is that companies favor candidates who have a…
> Which job fairs do your company reps attend? Are job fairs still a thing? IME most recruitment happens online these days, with the vast majority of candidates coming in via LinkedIn and other job boards. > Can employees recommend a friend as a potential recruit? What effect does that have on promoting favoritism over a better candidate? Why is that a bad thing? Personal recommendations from someone you trust is a v…
My point was to give a couple of examples of how the applicant queue is not completely out of a company's control. Surely you can think of other ones.
> The thing is that humans are innately tribal.
The thing about humans is we get to decide what our tribe is, and tribe membership both changes and is multi-component.
We can decide to change our religion, which changes our "tribe", while also supporting the local football team (another "tribe") and be in the alumni club of a college (a third "tribe") while also celebrating Independence Day (a fourth "tribe") at a work (tribe #5) event.
Making your point rather meaningless, since we can change ourselves.
> what is exactly the end goal of DEI programs?
I don't care to have this discussion. I'm a programmer. I came to point out that your objection to DEI was invalid, at a level that even a programmer could point out.
Re: Google kills diversity hiring targets
#284https://www.ebglaw.com/insights/publications/dei-and-affirma...
Re: Google kills diversity hiring targets
#285Earlier quoted context omitted.
[flagged]
What's amazing is how quickly Godwin's law surfaces in this type of conversations. I can be in favor of equal opportunity for everyone, yet against DEI programs. Not everyone who disagrees with you is a Nazi.
Re: Google kills diversity hiring targets
#286Earlier quoted context omitted.
I was expecting the US office to be more diverse than my UK office, given the large black population in the US, but that wasn't the case which surprised me.
Depends on where you are in the US. My city is very low black population compared to other large cities.
Re: Google kills diversity hiring targets
#287Earlier quoted context omitted.
Of course its controversial either way. Let's assume for our purposes that DEI is purely about being race, sex, gender, sexuality, age blind (which we can absolutely argue about separately). It would absolutely be controversial because it's replacing a system that previously wasn't blind to those characteristics and therefore has a large constituency of people it favoured. If I'm a rich white kid from a good family w…
> controversial because it's replacing a system that previously wasn't blind to those characteristics Was it though? Or was it just a result of society and culture outside the companies control. The idea behind DEI is as if a car crashes into another car because of an issue with the road, that leads to one car being more damaged than the other, the solution is to make sure the less damaged car has the same amount of…
Re: Google kills diversity hiring targets
#288Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are advantages to diversity by itself. These have been well documented. So setting aside any concern about excluded groups, it was a good business decision to aim for a diverse workforce. But taking those concerns up again, almost no one perceives their own biases as biases. It's like you don't perceive your own accent, people of different racial backgrounds look similar, you can't smell your own breath, etc. S…
>There are advantages to diversity by itself. These have been well documented. So setting aside any concern about excluded groups, it was a good business decision to aim for a diverse workforce. They wanted to have a diverse workforce, and came up with an excuse for it post-hoc. The best defense I've seen of this is that diverse opinions are good for business. Of course, hiring racially diverse people while being ant…
> Says the pot to the kettle.
That was my point. When I said "it's like an accent" I didn't mean I myself don't have an accent. It's that I don't perceive it. People do not perceive their own accents as accents. They don't perceive their own biases as biases.
But accents are still accents regardless of whether we perceive them. Biases are still biases.
My point wasn't that I am pure, free of sin. It wasn't about me at all. It was that biases are bad but often invisible.
> They wanted to have a diverse workforce, and came up with an excuse for it post-hoc. The best defense I've seen of this is that diverse opinions are good for business.
Is it true? If so, who cares whether it was post hoc?
I don't know whether you've done any machine learning. Nowadays all the news is about LLMs, but back in the day there were other algorithms -- decisions trees, support vector machines, logistic regression models, simple Bayesian models, etc. You had a mess of data. You defined feature vectors. You vectorized your data and threw it at the algorithm. You got a classifier. Or a regression model or whatever. Then there were also meta algorithms that took these base algorithms and combined them to make something more robust and accurate -- a random forest or something. This meta algorithm worked only if these sub-deciders differed. You make one decision tree, duplicate it 1000 times, and wrap it in a random forest and you get nothing but wasted effort. To achieve the gain you needed your deciders to have different opinions.
This is the theory behind diversity in an organization: you have multiple viewpoints plus some mechanism to combine them into a final decision. It has nothing to do with race or gender or anything. It is a provable way to get better decisions.
Did someone also want to lift up people historically beaten down? Maybe? Thats also a good thing! It's awesome if you can get better decisions and also make a more just society, right?
> We have a word for this: racism.
What? This is just a shibboleth. Is racism a good thing or a bad thing? Is trying to counteract racism just as bad as raw racism? It produces a more fair outcome, but it's forbidden! We must preserve the injustice because to counteract it would also be unjust!
This is a ludicrous position. The point of using a DEI mechanism is that it is just that, a mechanism. You set it up and let it decide so that flawed human judgment doesn't decide. Is the mechanism racist? I don't know, does it have ideas and intentions?
Perhaps it will be clearer if I try to do some perspective taking for you.
Imagine there is a company with a South Asian CEO, CTO, etc. They only trust South Asians. Only South Asians are a good cultural fit. North Americans are lazy, unmotivated, dumb, incurious, entitled. They are poor team players. They won't put in extra hours, or if they do, it will achieve nothing. And then if you interact with them there's always this tension, awkwardness. You can't tell the same stupid American jokes. It's a joke! They have no sense of humor.
Now you are a North American with skills. You actually are very talented and insightful. You have lots of energy, lots of ideas. You would be a great employee. But this company will not hire you. (You disgust them a little.) Is this racism? I've just inverted identities, but I think you would agree that the company is racist and this is unfair. And it's clear that this racism harms both you and the company. But if the company's HR or whatever recognized the possibility that racism was tainting their hiring practices and implemented DEI targets as an impartial mechanism to work against this bias, that would be racist against South Asians! So to maintain their moral purity they should preserve their original racism and deny you the job. [slaps dust off hands and calls it a day]
Do you see the other perspective now? To summarize: racism is bad because it harms both parties. A mechanism that counteracts this helps both parties, and is just and good to boot. Saying that they are equivalent because they both consider race, to say that this makes them both equally racist, is to make "racism" a nullity, a thing of no consequence. If this is racism, it is good racism, because it rights an injustice. Or, alternatively, it is not racism. Racism is using race to commit an injustice, not to counteract it.
Re: Google kills diversity hiring targets
#289Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a minor detail but reducing or removing alcohol all together (my company) from social events for inclusion reasons is excluding people who like consuming alcohol at social events. We somehow pivoted to embracing restrictions in order to accommodate small groups of people, instead of offering alternatives (e.g. vegan options). This will always irritate other groups of people and is not a sustainable way to imp…
> reducing or removing alcohol all together (my company) from social events for inclusion reasons is excluding people who like consuming alcohol at social events Reducing or removing alcohol at social events is not done for "inclusion reasons" but for straightforward legal liability reasons: a drunk employee often has poor impulse control and may do or say shitty things that they wouldn't if they were sober, and with…
Re: Google kills diversity hiring targets
#290The only way is to “naturally” help create conditions that hopefully will slowly yield. Sure there aarea many vague lines there, but at least we should be rational enough to choose the right attitude, right general approach.
What could be more racist and stupid then these “hiring targets”?