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America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

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281–290 of 660 posts

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

20/20 vision in each eye (no contact lenses) is also a requirement. I have a feeling thatll rule out a lot of software engineers on this site.

I assume plenty of people will be happy to go through LASIK for that

As far as I recall, in the Aviation world, LASIK is still a major gamble. If you're a pilot or ATC and come out of LASIK surgery with any weird surgery-induced vision abnormalities like "halos" or "starbursts", you're out, permanently.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certain immigrants actually seem to excel in trucking and even enjoy it (Punjabi truckers especially in California - I always see the Sikh logos on the back of their trucks between LA and SF!). A quick policy adjust would resolve any shortage in truckers with other people who'd probably also enjoy the work. However, there isn't a massive pool of people abroad who can handle US airspace demands (which now seems to inc…

> and also includes people like my former college hallmates who take handheld aviation radios, ask for permission to depart, and run on the taxiways with their arms extended, to great dismay of ATC You can't just drop a tidbit like that without elaborating.

The airport was in southwest Virginia and most of the traffic was Cessnas so they got away with it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#283
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like reasonable pay for what is a very important job. Wouldn't object to paying much much more.

I'm an Air Traffic Controller and I'm required by the FAA to say these opinions are my own and not necessarily of the FAA. Some fully-certified air traffic controllers cannot afford to live where they work, not to mention the trainees that have the added stress of training and making less money. At my first facility, to live within 45 minutes of work, my whole paycheck went to rent, thank goodness I had savings from…

How many hours per day?

How many days per week?

Paid vacations?

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've toured a couple of ATC towers recently and my impression was they were surprisingly low tech. A tech upgrade seems like the most viable solution at this point. There are processes for writing and testing software and hardware for environments such as this, but the government needs to be willing to make the investment.

The general problem here is that we need to do something about the government contracting process. It has been thoroughly captured by large government contractors who do mediocre work for enormous sums of money while excluding anyone who could do better from the process through corruption and red tape. Which in turn means that important systems become frozen in time because upgrade attempts become boondoggles that ca…

You touch on an interesting idea. Imagine if there is a "USA ATC Github" open-source repo. As a consultant, you bid on maintenance of the repo and get repo ownership privilege in exchange for your contract. Now you are paid to contribute to the repo for the duration of the contract. The public gets to see if you are worth your fee. If your contract ends, ownership revoked and handed to the next consultant.

The obvious downside to this is that hardening code becomes a potential large amount of effort/overhead that could normally be concealed behind binaries and proprietary code.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#285
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you have listed above could be solved with money. Only 10% of applicants are physically and mentally qualified? Sounds like you need more applicants? Want to attract more applicants? Offer more compensation. The training and onboarding is incredibly long? Sounds like a doctor? Do you know why people go through the pain of becoming a doctor? Because they make a lot of money when they get through the other s…

> Do you know why people go through the pain of becoming a doctor? Because they make a lot of money when they get through the other side. I think the guaranteed respect and admiration that comes from the title is actually a more powerful draw. Don't get me wrong, the money is good, but on par with senior manager in any large tech firm. Doctor is a primal respect that technical roles do not carry. You're not getting i…

>"Doctor is a primal respect that technical roles do not carry."

Used to be. Not anymore. Nowadays many doctors act as a smartass business people.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#286
post #258
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you have listed above could be solved with money. Only 10% of applicants are physically and mentally qualified? Sounds like you need more applicants? Want to attract more applicants? Offer more compensation. The training and onboarding is incredibly long? Sounds like a doctor? Do you know why people go through the pain of becoming a doctor? Because they make a lot of money when they get through the other s…

> Sounds like a doctor? Not disagreeing, but the US also has a doctor shortage for at least a decade that it is seemingly unable to fix.

There are multiple reasons for the doctor shortage but it's at least partly intentional. The primary bottleneck on producing new physicians is the number of residency program slots: every year some students graduate with an MD but are unable to practice medicine because they can't get matched to a residency slot (some do get matched the following year). Most residency programs are funded through Medicare and Congress has refused to significantly increase that budget for years. But here's the trick. By limiting the number of doctors they also hold down the cost of Medicare claims. If a Medicare beneficiary can't get an appointment because there are no doctors available then no claim will be generated and the federal government doesn't have to pay anything.

https://savegme.org/

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#287

Is this a US ONLY problem? I'm not trying to start a flame war, I'm genuinely wondering for example: European air travel doesn't seem any less safe than the US so whatever they are doing seems to work just as well. Do they have trouble hiring and keeping ATCs? Is their comp/work life/training/etc very different than ours? Would appreciate any insight from folks that know.

It looks like Europe also has staffing issues, but they're more likely to cancel/delay flights rather than overwork their ATC https://skift.com/2023/08/22/europes-air-traffic-controller-...

Yes — it reached a point where Ryanair made a website on the issue: https://www.atcruinedourholiday.com/

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reagan taking away collective bargaining rights for ATCs seems to be what have led to the shortage and the helicopter accident last week.

The official investigation report is of course going to take a bit, but the ATC audio is public, and the helicopter was warned twice about the plane, and said they had a visual of the plane. Besides never missing an opportunity to 'slam' the opposition, I have no idea why this is being construed as an ATC failure.

> Besides never missing an opportunity to 'slam' the opposition, I have no idea why this is being construed as an ATC failure.

Just saying what I've heard. One issue is that the controller allowed visual separation, to begin with. They say he should have known that it was difficult, especially at night, and shouldn't have allowed it.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#289
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sounds like a doctor? Not disagreeing, but the US also has a doctor shortage for at least a decade that it is seemingly unable to fix.

The USA restricts the number of positions for medical schools and residencies. It's a problem that money could solve.

There is no restriction on medical school admissions. It's really just residencies.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#290
post #219

It should be noted that the FAA is facing a lawsuit alleging it discriminated against capable candidates[1]. If this is true, this surely must factor into the shortage of air traffic controllers. Admittedly, its a big if, and second even if it is true it is not clear to me how much of a factor this is in the shortage. [1] https://mslegal.org/cases/brigida-v-faa/

The Brigida case has been the subtext of recent news stories:

Trump was likely referencing it with his DEI comments about the FAA.

Pete Buttigieg's tweet response (acting as if Trump's accusation was coming completely out of left field, when there's literally a case named "Brigida v. Buttigieg"): https://x.com/PeteButtigieg/status/1885013865676562491

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