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El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

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Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#281

Post by FabHK »

jaggederest wrote: post #121
ggm wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It hasn't entirely stopped rents in HK being untenably high, for many people. It has rent controls, but the system permits some very untenable outcomes which if left unchecked would re-create Kowloon Walled City. So whilst politically I agree, practically I am unsure there is no land speculation: A waterfront view remains valuable in and of itself, no matter what.

Right, obviously HK is a bit of a special case. Land in Manhattan would, I'm 100% certain, remain incredibly expensive. The cool thing about leases is that you can change the cost of the lease periodically, which ensures that the value of the land does not accrue purely to the person occupying it.

> obviously HK is a bit of a special case

Reminds me of the old macro economist joke: There are 4 types of economies, developed economy, developing economy, Japan, and Argentina. Maybe HK should be added to that joke...

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#282

Post by notatoad »

Kindra wrote: post #268
kylebenzle wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeh, it failed so hard no one even uses it anymore.

Are you able to point to a single case where Bitcoin was used as legal tender in an every day business transaction? By this I mean, can you give an example where someone ordered a cup of coffee with Bitcoin directly and not through a proxy?

does buying drugs count?

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#283

Post by ggm »

roenxi wrote: post #173
codethief wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Speculative asset class fails as non-speculative legal tender class. This. Bitcoin proponents often claim that eventually everyone will use Bitcoin for payments ("Finally no more governments or central banks!") and that's why it will increase in value, so everyone should invest in BTC. But this argument is fundamentally flawed: A currency, in order for it to work (in order for people to be able to trust it), needs…

In fairness, markets can operate quite well with almost nobody in them being able to argue why. Gold has remarkable staying power but it is rare to find gold proponents who can explain why convincingly. A lot of the arguments for where the value comes from are bunk. If I hear one more person explaining that jewellery matters I'll ... go peacefully about my day I suppose. Still holds its value though, the economy does…

Doing much shopping with gold coins lately? Even big things. Bought a car with a bar?

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#284

Post by aydyn »

mystified5016 wrote: post #236
aydyn wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What currency is stable in value? Certainly not the U.S. dollar.

The USD doesn't frequently lose all or nearly all value as we see from cryptocoins. My $10 today will be worth $10 tomorrow barring nuclear war or an apocalypse.

Sure but the USD has two order of magnitude more total value, and probably more than that in day to day usage.

So there's an implicit question there which apparently you and everyone else missed.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#285

Post by markasoftware »

Kindra wrote: post #268
kylebenzle wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeh, it failed so hard no one even uses it anymore.

Are you able to point to a single case where Bitcoin was used as legal tender in an every day business transaction? By this I mean, can you give an example where someone ordered a cup of coffee with Bitcoin directly and not through a proxy?

The post you're replying to is about Bitcoin being "used", not specifically "used for everyday transactions". Bitcoin has so far been a decent asset to hold as a store of value if you don't want to or can't store your money in the traditional financial system. Lots of everyday people in countries with high inflation or strict controls or how people can store money hold Bitcoin (or perhaps more commonly, stablecoins) for a very practical purpose other than speculation.

Bitcoin has only failed so far as a replacement for Visa and Mastercard. So no, nobody's using it to buy coffee.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#286

Post by adamtaylor_13 »

This was never going to work.

To me, Bitcoin seems way more like an asset class, rather than a currency. (Despite the name which is a HUGE misnomer for the average layperson.)

Nobody invested in Bitcoin believes you should be ordering pizzas or using it as an actual currency. Bitcoin is a long-term play.

You can't make a currency out of something that's fluctuating by more than 10,000 USD in a 24-hour period.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#287

Post by protimewaster »

aydyn wrote: post #209
codethief wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Speculative asset class fails as non-speculative legal tender class. This. Bitcoin proponents often claim that eventually everyone will use Bitcoin for payments ("Finally no more governments or central banks!") and that's why it will increase in value, so everyone should invest in BTC. But this argument is fundamentally flawed: A currency, in order for it to work (in order for people to be able to trust it), needs…

What currency is stable in value? Certainly not the U.S. dollar.

I think it's safe to read that as "relatively stable." USD is a relatively stable currency, and especially compared to BTC.

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#288

Post by cle »

purist33 wrote: post #276
portaouflop wrote: post #188

IMF gave them 1.4 billion to abandon the “experiment”: > The IMF made this a condition for a loan of 1.4 billion US dollars (1.35 billion euros). In December of last year, the IMF reached an agreement with President Nayib Bukele’s government on the loan of the stated amount to strengthen the country’s “fiscal sustainability” and mitigate the “risks associated with Bitcoin,” as it was described. —- I dislike cryptocur…

There is a book called "Talking to your daughter about Economics", where the author explains one of the problems with bitcoin is, you cant print more of it in a crisis. Maybe thats what happened here.

Ironically part of the long-term problem was El Salvador's dollarization, also preventing them from printing in a crisis (that crisis being the COVID pandemic).

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#289

Post by culi »

portaouflop wrote: post #188

IMF gave them 1.4 billion to abandon the “experiment”: > The IMF made this a condition for a loan of 1.4 billion US dollars (1.35 billion euros). In December of last year, the IMF reached an agreement with President Nayib Bukele’s government on the loan of the stated amount to strengthen the country’s “fiscal sustainability” and mitigate the “risks associated with Bitcoin,” as it was described. —- I dislike cryptocur…

The very first IMF loan ever given was to France for reconstruction. One of the terms for the condition was to remove the only elected communist in their government from their position.

IMF loans have ALWAYS been political

Re: El Salvador abandons Bitcoin as legal tender

#290

Post by postalrat »

kragen wrote: post #260
skybrian wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that doesn't distinguish Bitcoin from other cryptocurrencies. The thing that distinguishes Bitcoin is fame, pure and simple. Everyone has heard of it.

Also nobody can premine it, no coalition of big stakeholders can lock you out of your coins, a 51% attack is less likely feasible than for any other PoW coin, the bandwidth needed for its blockchain is smaller than most alternatives, and it's less likely to conceal unknown cryptographic weaknesses. It's kind of shitty in some other ways, though.

And eventually the math will be solved and every bitcoin will be worth zero.
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