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In my life, I've witnessed three elite salespeople at work

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Re: In my life, I've witnessed three elite salespeople at work

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sales are maligned for good reason. I'd wager I've experienced the "you know nothing about formal wear but somebody sells you a suit you really feel good in" salesperson a handful of times. Now, the number of times I've had someone try to sell me something while clearly not listening to what I have to say and getting uncomfortably pushy about it, well... yikes.

Engineers are awful too. The number of times I have been subjected to needlessly bad product designs far exceeds my negative interactions with sales people. And then there are the products that fail at their one function.

Not to mention the type of telemarketing salespeople being ragged on here are the equivalent of "software engineers" in bottom bracket outsourcing companies whose principal skills are installing WordPress templates and making excuses...

Re: In my life, I've witnessed three elite salespeople at work

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineers are awful too. The number of times I have been subjected to needlessly bad product designs far exceeds my negative interactions with sales people. And then there are the products that fail at their one function.

At least Engineers are trying to create something of value. Salespeople are just trying extract your value.

Engineers can create things that don't have value and salespeople can create value by matching problems with solutions, there are a lot of things we all very happily pay for after all. It's just not that simple.

Re: In my life, I've witnessed three elite salespeople at work

#283

The best sales people I've worked with were incredible strategic thinkers and not really sales people at all. They built an intimate knowledge of their customer and their industry, built strong connections with the top brass of their client by delivering exceptional work that got those people promoted, and were really good at building autonomous teams that could get the (exceptional) work done with their guidance on…

How does a salesperson deliver exceptional work? In every place I’ve worked, outside of independent contracting, the sales person didn’t do the trench work.

I once worked for a company that sold industry cleaning supplies in the food processing vertical. The amount of industry knowledge that salespeople required to simply be able to offer one product over another was staggering. The best salespeople knew the industry, the end products, the supply chain, the internal processes, the potential improvements, and could present it in a way that was clear to operators, technical to supervisors, and commercially viable to decision makers.

Re: In my life, I've witnessed three elite salespeople at work

#284
post #91
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's amazing how often "illegally" is the American Way. I only wish it were a joke.

Americans surely do love to make things illegal.

> Americans surely do love to make things illegal.

That's certainly not the issue here - where the secret was to avoid informing or giving time to think by skipping the fine print.

Re: In my life, I've witnessed three elite salespeople at work

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the difference between being a great salesman and having great sales. Any idiot can sell something that's in demand. It takes a genius to sell something that nobody wants. It's better to be the idiot.

I worked (in sales engineering) at such a company with a market-leading product. For a few years there, at the height of the market/mindshare dominance for their main product, I observed a recurring theme: We'd hire a new manager from outside the company. This new manager would go around and meet some sales teams, meet some customers, then a month or two in, end up at a meeting where they gave a speech. At this speec…

That's fair. I should amend my comment. Even stuff that's highly in demand often has competitors with equivalent products, and often the products are complex and business relationships need to be maintained and there are a thousand and one complexities to understanding and executing the business. I apologize for the "any idiot" line.

But I do believe that the job is fundamentally different when it's about selling a product that's needed compared to selling worthless crap.

Re: In my life, I've witnessed three elite salespeople at work

#286
That was a long and tedious article. It describes how to adopt a hardened & transactional mindset. UGH.

Consumer sales is not Software Sales. In general - the professionals/engineers/managers I spoke with were really gracious and insightful.

Most sales organizations operate like a factory producing widgets. This is fine. It produces outcomes at the lowest possible cost of sales.

There are times when there is no substitute for elite sales: 1) Getting customer #2-100. 2) Most products which sell for over 200k 3) Complex engagements with multiple decision makers

I worked in early stage startups and sold software to the Global 2000.

How? 1) Never contact someone unless you have very (*very) strong indicators that what you are offering has high value to them and their goals 2) KNOW what you are talking about. Be able to engage in conversations about their technical infrastructure, options, goals and politics. 3) The goal of every call is to add value... NOT to make a sale. Adding value will open doors and people pick up the phone. Trusted peers provide referrals. They provide insight.

A classic failure of early stage founders it to mistake the factory model of sales (efficiency) for the required model of sales (inefficient, research based, strategic).

To site the Cynefin framework (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynefin_framework) They mistake mistakenly believe that sales is simple and can be structured like a factory.

Most sales people are factory workers. They crank widgets.

Most products don't have sufficient margin to justify hiring expensive talent.

Professional sales is complex, chaotic, political, layered with inter-dependencies, and fought with constraints. It's a great career -- once you get good at it.

Re: In my life, I've witnessed three elite salespeople at work

#287
post #266

For what it's worth, this article has given me ample moral justification for the disdain I show for cold-callers and relationship-based sellers alike (though typically I'll be openly hostile only to the first group): I don't owe them anything, even people I work with over a period of years. As long as they're trying to sell me something, I have the thing they want and not the other way around. What's truly astonishin…

I hang up the moment I realize it’s a sales call. If I’m in a particularly great mood that day, I might mutter a quick “No thank you I’m not interested.”

The way I vindicate myself morally is by knowing I’m not wasting their time this way. People like me are dead ends —— I know that I’m never going to be convinced to buy whatever they’re selling in a million years. By ending the call quickly, I feel like I’m doing them a favor. They can move on to someone who might actually be interested.

Re: In my life, I've witnessed three elite salespeople at work

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sales are maligned. There is the guy at the car dealership who specializes in adding an extended service contract for your new car. Then there's the guy who sells a software development project that lands a well qualified customer (joy to work with) and a good specification which was well estimated and price so you can complete the work profitably. Maybe you know nothing about formalwear but somebody sells you a suit…

Note that car dealerships are like that because the dealership cannot offer you the later. You go into the dealer having looked up their cost on Edmunds/kbb/... and are determined to give them zero profit from the sale. Worse you know (right or wrong) what you want to buy and so they can't even provide the service of listening to your needs and getting you in the right car. In theory you should have better luck by wa…

Having just went through the process of buying a car, and the amount of work, research and effort needed on my part to ensure that I didn't pay through the nose on a car, this is, in my opinion, squarely in response to the car sales industry almost universally adopting predatory sales tactics.

If I could go into a dealership and trust that everyone in the building wasn't out to get me, and instead wanted to build a longterm relationship with me from sales to service, advertised the actual cost of the vehicle instead of a BS pre-fees, pre-additional markup price, then I wouldn't do that. Perhaps I'm not seeing the whole story, but as I understand it the dealerships changed their behavior first, and the customer _had_ to get more savvy as a result.

You put enough customer predatory sales practices everywhere, and you raise a generation who just doesn't trust sales staff. It doesn't have to be this way though.

I gotta be careful though, I'm dangerously close to getting on my soapbox about how difficult it is to be a sustainable lifestyle business in today's day, and how much I wish a return to that.

Re: In my life, I've witnessed three elite salespeople at work

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My archetype of a good sales person is the successful realtor. Realtors tend to “eat what they can kill”, so you can see the skills power law clearly. They are selling themselves more than houses, but there’s a lot to learn from that. Some people love their realtors, although they do very little for their outlandish commissions. They do however, guide you through the process and give you transactional advice. Like an…

> although they do very little for their outlandish commissions Realtors exist because buyers and sellers usually don't trust each other enough to talk directly. It's stupid and inefficient, but here we are.

I think they provide a quite useful service.

As a seller, they can handle all the visits for you - no need to take calls from potential buyers, arrange times with them to show them the house, etc. This becomes almost indispensable if you live far away from the house you're selling.

As a buyer, they also provide convenience - sometimes I've seen 3 or 4 different apartments in two hours, which would almost certainly be impossible if I needed to contact and arrange time slots with 4 different sellers. They also filter properties with unrealistic prices - I have seen many owners who have massive bias, having grown in the house, etc., and will charge like 100K over reasonable prices. A good realtor would probably not even show you that home or warn you beforehand so you don't waste your time.

In my country, they also help with the bureaucracy associated with actually performing the purchase, which is far from trivial - although this can vary per country, I guess.

Re: In my life, I've witnessed three elite salespeople at work

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked (in sales engineering) at such a company with a market-leading product. For a few years there, at the height of the market/mindshare dominance for their main product, I observed a recurring theme: We'd hire a new manager from outside the company. This new manager would go around and meet some sales teams, meet some customers, then a month or two in, end up at a meeting where they gave a speech. At this speec…

That's fair. I should amend my comment. Even stuff that's highly in demand often has competitors with equivalent products, and often the products are complex and business relationships need to be maintained and there are a thousand and one complexities to understanding and executing the business. I apologize for the "any idiot" line. But I do believe that the job is fundamentally different when it's about selling a p…

> But I do believe that the job is fundamentally different when it's about selling a product that's needed compared to selling worthless crap.

Definitely. Another big driver is recurring relationships, either with customers or a larger peer selling community[0]. Most people won't buy more than once from someone unreliable, and ethical people generally don't want to work alongside or be associated with unethical people. Sales people that have options will gravitate towards products/companies they think they can sell more of and most won't consider working for companies that make useless crap or companies that can't or won't support what they make.

0 - think multi-tier tech sales, where you might have an OEM that makes a product, a distributor that either holds stock on the product or handles receivables for the OEM, and a VAR who might directly sell the product to an end-user, all with sales reps that work together on most (or all) deals.

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