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How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

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Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#281

Post by vampiresdoexist »

The_Colonel wrote: post #187
Kamq wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People higher up the chain are insecure because any loss of face is debilitating. You don't do it in public. There's no face to lose in private (you're a subordinate, face is only lost among peers and superiors). It is, however, not really a good idea to be 100% blunt out of the gate. There's a dance to it. But in public, I'm there to make my manager look good, and in private I'll tell them exactly what I think. On…

> you're a subordinate, face is only lost among peers and superiors I disagree. Losing the respect of your subordinates is IMHO worse than of your superior.

If your superior is managing up well, then it truly doesn’t matter if subordinates lose respect. Probably laying groundwork for new ones well in advance of that becoming a real issue for their status.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#282

Post by Kamq »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #122
zenogantner wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The people" are the president's superior.

Only in the same sense that bottom-level employees are the CEO's superior. Which is to say, they aren't. Formal structure can stabilize a system and make it resilient to shocks. But there's a limit to how much stability can be provided, and if you provide enough shock, the structure will change.

> Only in the same sense that bottom-level employees are the CEO's superior. Which is to say, they aren't.

There's an important difference. Bottom-level employees don't get to choose the CEO at most companies.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#283

Post by Kamq »

The_Colonel wrote: post #187
Kamq wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People higher up the chain are insecure because any loss of face is debilitating. You don't do it in public. There's no face to lose in private (you're a subordinate, face is only lost among peers and superiors). It is, however, not really a good idea to be 100% blunt out of the gate. There's a dance to it. But in public, I'm there to make my manager look good, and in private I'll tell them exactly what I think. On…

> you're a subordinate, face is only lost among peers and superiors I disagree. Losing the respect of your subordinates is IMHO worse than of your superior.

You can lose the respect of your subordinates, but that's different than losing face.

Although one may lead to the other, they are different things.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#284

Post by dahart »

YZF wrote: post #107
inopinatus wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what godawful chain you are hitched to but I hope you can find a way off it. High-performance managers realise they are there to enable the talent. You're Brian Epstein, not John Lennon. The job is to create the conditions for folks at the pointy end to be wildly successful. One of the most defining characteristics of this attitude is the maxim "hire people smarter than yourself", a very fine sentiment w…

I agree with you in principle that's the correct attitude. However I don't think the comparison to the music industry is necessarily correct. A lot of managers in tech got there because they are technically strong. We can argue about whether that's correct or not but I think that's typically the case. People who perform well as engineers are the ones who are given leadership opportunities. People who do not are not.…

> it’s just hard to impossible to scale that

The phrase “hire people smarter than yourself” is a platitude that is intended to foster an attitude, just a useful way of framing & thinking about people, mainly aimed at the manager, but has the byproduct of making ICs feel good about themselves. It’s not really a literal measurable specific requirement or goal. One way to see that nobody is taking it literally is that nobody is reporting IQ on their resume, and nobody is giving standardized IQ tests during job interviews. (And of course I mean statistically nobody, I’m not claiming that it’s never happened.) Often in hiring ‘smart’ doesn’t really mean smart anyway, it means wisdom, experience, attitude, skill, communication, knowledge, motivation, creativity, adaptability, friendliness, culture-fit, etc., there are many different ways someone can be ‘smarter’ than you on at least 1 axis of whatever ‘smart’ means, and it’s generally not hard to find them if we’re realistic about how smart we are on all axes.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#285

Post by bdangubic »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #280
bdangubic wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

every employment should be at will!! is there a constitutional or birthright to employment at XYZ company? these discussion always look at one side, like “employer can’t fire employee X without paying severance and other junk” but if I started a company and said “if you leave the company you have to pay severance back to the company for leaving” everyone would be up in arms about it…

> every employment should be at will!! I would agree in an ideal world where salaries are tied to a qualification (a notion a tad more nuanced than just diploma), instead of their job . While there is no (nor should be any) constitutional right to work at any given company, I think people should have an inalienable right to live. Which in practice means food, shelter, and health care at a minimum, regardless of their…

I think this arrangement would be fair if you had to pay back to the company the same amount they have to pay you. to get a notice for some period of time makes sense (both ways) but I can’t see a reason why this is all not equal on both sides.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#286

Post by chipdart »

lijok wrote: post #6

Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…

> If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of.

You're arguing based on how you think the world should be instead of how the world actually is.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#287

Post by alistairSH »

throwawaymaths wrote: post #276
alistairSH wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There a lot more subtlety to this than you seem to indicate. I’d never give negative feedback to an exec (+2 levels above me) in a large meeting. I’d wait for a more private setting. With my immediate boss (director) I’d provide feedback in a small “managers only” group if I thought there was something to debate as a group, but not an open team meeting. But your comments about subordinates is true. Generally try to k…

For (most) management. Absolutely do NOT do this: "I’d wait for a more private setting." Only do this IF you think management is well adjusted human being that is not ego driven. I leave it to reader to decide exactly how much of management falls into that bin. If management is not, they will know that you are a threat to them and work to undermine you and get you removed. If you provide feedback publically they can…

Fair point. “More private” not 1-on-1. I’d probably have my manager in that conversation (and quite possibly run my thoughts by them before offering them to the exec).

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#288

Post by callc »

I’m sick of dealing with managers and bad leaders, and want to get back to coding and building cool stuff.

Is there any solution for this? Co-op? Contract work? Consultancy? Union? Flat org structure? Self employment? Start a company with a couple of engineer friends and have flat org, based on trust?

I’m guessing only the last two options are promising. I’d appreciate hearing everyone’s stories, as I am genuinely interested.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#289

Post by Hilift »

flog wrote: post #4

This was one of the most exhausting aspects of working for a US company, especially as an H1B. Simply: just don't say anything, it wasn't worth it. I'm from cultures where we bluntly call a spade a spade and pride ourselves on disdain for hierarchy. There's far less fear in raising concerns generally to anyone, but it's quite possibly because of the far better employment laws.

I call it the "smile and wave boys" response.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#290

Post by specialist »

palata wrote: post #42

In my 13 years of experience, I would say it's never worth giving feedback to your manager. Either they are good and it's useless, or they are not and they won't learn from you. I have come to a simple rule: if the manager is good, there is no problem. If the manager sucks (often that's because they lack experience, but it's all the same), just lie to them in order to preserve yourself. No need to have empathy for th…

Yes and: Churn moots the entire notion. That whole storming -> forming -> norming -> performing team maturity model stuff. Have a bad boss? No worries; wait 3 months and you'll have a new boss. Thereby resetting the team(s) and relationship(s) back to storming.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Best feedback I've ever gotten was from peers (other bosses). And that was only after years of working together. Sadly, that was a long time ago. I'd kick a puppy to work on a stable, durable team again.

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