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Launch HN: Regatta Storage (YC F24) – Turn S3 into a local-like, POSIX cloud FS

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281–290 of 329 posts

Re: Launch HN: Regatta Storage (YC F24) – Turn S3 into a local-like, POSIX cloud FS

#281
I love this space, and I have tried and failed to get cloud providers to work on it directly :). We could not get the Avere folks to admit that their block-based thing on object store was a mistake, but they were also the only real game in town.

That said, I feel like writeback caching is a bit ... risky? That is, you aren't treating the object store as the source of truth. If your caching layer goes down after a write is ack'ed but before it's "replicated" to S3, people lose their data, right?

I think you'll end up wanting to offer customers the ability to do strongly-consistent writes (and cache invalidation). You'll also likely end up wanting to add operator control for "oh and don't cache these, just pass through to the backing store" (e.g., some final output that isn't intended to get reused anytime soon).

Finally, don't sleep on NFSv4.1! It ticks a bunch of compliance boxes for various industries, and then they will pay you :). Supporting FUSE is great for folks who can do it, but you'd want them to start by just pointing their NFS client at you, then "upgrading" to FUSE for better performance.

Re: Launch HN: Regatta Storage (YC F24) – Turn S3 into a local-like, POSIX cloud FS

#282
post #281

I love this space, and I have tried and failed to get cloud providers to work on it directly :). We could not get the Avere folks to admit that their block-based thing on object store was a mistake, but they were also the only real game in town. That said, I feel like writeback caching is a bit ... risky? That is, you aren't treating the object store as the source of truth. If your caching layer goes down after a wri…

> That is, you aren't treating the object store as the source of truth. If your caching layer goes down after a write is ack'ed but before it's "replicated" to S3, people lose their data, right?

This is exactly why we're building our caching layer to be highly-durable, like S3 itself. We will make sure that the data in the cache is safe, even if servers go down. This is what gives us the confidence to respond to the client before the data is in S3. The big difference between the data living in our cache and the data living in S3 is cost and performance, not necessarily durability.

> I think you'll end up wanting to offer customers the ability to do strongly-consistent writes (and cache invalidation). You'll also likely end up wanting to add operator control for "oh and don't cache these, just pass through to the backing store" (e.g., some final output that isn't intended to get reused anytime soon).

I think this is exactly right. I think that storage systems are too often too hands off about the data (oh, give us the bytes and we will store them for you). I believe that there are gains to be had by asking the users to tell you more about what they're doing. If you have a directory which is only used to read files and a directory which is only used to write files, then you probably want to have different cache strategies for those directories? I believe we can deliver this with good enough UX for most people to use.

> Finally, don't sleep on NFSv4.1! It ticks a bunch of compliance boxes for various industries, and then they will pay you :). Supporting FUSE is great for folks who can do it, but you'd want them to start by just pointing their NFS client at you, then "upgrading" to FUSE for better performance.

I certainly don't, and this is why we are supporting NFSv3 right now. That's not going away any time soon. We want to offer something that's highly compatible with the industry at large today (NFS-based, we can talk specifics about whether or not that should be v3 or v4) and then something that is high-performance for the early adopters who can use something like FUSE. I think that both things are required to get the breadth of customers that we're looking for.

Re: Launch HN: Regatta Storage (YC F24) – Turn S3 into a local-like, POSIX cloud FS

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All connected file system clients see read-after-write consistency, so you see the up to date file data!

I heard you about the "limited hands, infinite wishlist" but nowadays when I see someone making bold claims about transactions and consistency over the network, I grab my popcorn bucket and eagerly await the Jepsen report about it The good news is that you, personally, don't have to spend the time to create the Jepsen test harness, you can pay them to run the test but I have no idea what kind of O($) we're talking he…

We've actually been thinking about getting Jepsen to do this, so I'm happy to hear that you also think that it would inspire confidence!

Re: Launch HN: Regatta Storage (YC F24) – Turn S3 into a local-like, POSIX cloud FS

#284
post #253

Founder of cunoFS here, brilliant to see lots of activity in this space, and congrats on the launch! As you'll know, there's a whole galaxy of design decisions when building file storage, and as a storage geek it's fun to see what different choices people make! I see you've made some similar decisions to what we did for similar reasons I think - making sure files are stored 1:1 exactly as an object without some propr…

Is that Gweo? Didn't know you were in the storage space, good to see you!

Re: Launch HN: Regatta Storage (YC F24) – Turn S3 into a local-like, POSIX cloud FS

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, yes — there are some specific file locking concerns with NFSv3 (notably that locks aren’t built as leases like in NFSv4). Let me do a double click here, but I know we will be able to support locks correctly with our custom protocol when we launch it by the end of the year.

I would really enjoy hearing why SMBv4 or the hundreds of other protocols are somehow insufficient for your needs. The thought of "how hard can a custom protocol be?!" makes me shudder, to say nothing of the burden -- ours and yours -- of maintaining endpoint implementations for all the bazillions of places one would want to consume a network mount

Ultimately, we're just working on a different problem space than these protocols. That's not to say that all of the existing protocols are bad, I absolutely believe that these protocols are great. Our ultimate goal, though, is to replace block storage, with a file-layer protocol. This sort of requires different semantics than what the existing file protocols support.

I don't at all disagree that it's a hard problem! That's part of what makes it so fun to work on.

Re: Launch HN: Regatta Storage (YC F24) – Turn S3 into a local-like, POSIX cloud FS

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard you about the "limited hands, infinite wishlist" but nowadays when I see someone making bold claims about transactions and consistency over the network, I grab my popcorn bucket and eagerly await the Jepsen report about it The good news is that you, personally, don't have to spend the time to create the Jepsen test harness, you can pay them to run the test but I have no idea what kind of O($) we're talking he…

We've actually been thinking about getting Jepsen to do this, so I'm happy to hear that you also think that it would inspire confidence!

That's exactly right!

Re: Launch HN: Regatta Storage (YC F24) – Turn S3 into a local-like, POSIX cloud FS

#287
post #233

Wow, coincidentally I posted GlassBD ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42164058 ) a couple of days ago. Making S3 strongly consistent is not trivial, so I'm curious about how you achieved this. If the caching layer can return success before writing through to s3, it means you built a strongly consistent distributed in memory database. Or, the consistency guarantee is actually less, or data is partitioned and can…

Hey, thanks for reaching out. The caching layer does return success before writing to S3 -- that's how we get good performance for all operations, including those which aren't possible to do in S3 efficiently (such as random writes, renames, or file appends). Because the caching layer is durable, we can safely asynchronously apply these changes to the S3 bucket. Most operations appear in the S3 bucket within a minute…

Regatta is a write-through cache for s3 bucket under its supervision? I guess then external changes to that bucket is a no-no?

Any plans to expand to other stores, like R2 (I ask since unlike S3, R2 egress is free)?

Re: Launch HN: Regatta Storage (YC F24) – Turn S3 into a local-like, POSIX cloud FS

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for clearing that up. Few followup questions: You don't actually directly charge for storage itself, so I assume this a "bring your own s3 bucket" type of deal, correct? How long does data, that is no longer being accessed sit in the cache and count towards billing? As for availability, are you in the process or do you have plans to also support Google Cloud?

> You don't actually directly charge for storage itself, so I assume this a "bring your own s3 bucket" type of deal, correct? That's correct -- we store data in the customer S3 bucket. > How long does data, that is no longer being accessed sit in the cache and count towards billing? We keep data in the cache for up to 1 hour after you've stopped accessing it. > As for availability, are you in the process or do you ha…

Plus 1 for GCP. Cant wait to try it out.

Re: Launch HN: Regatta Storage (YC F24) – Turn S3 into a local-like, POSIX cloud FS

#289
post #28

> Currently, only the us-east-1 region is supported. Please contact support@regattastorage.com if you need to use a different region. Bold choice, given what I know about us-east-1

> given what I know...

Given Hunter worked at AWS, I bet they are way too familiar with IAD.

Re: Launch HN: Regatta Storage (YC F24) – Turn S3 into a local-like, POSIX cloud FS

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, thanks for reaching out. The caching layer does return success before writing to S3 -- that's how we get good performance for all operations, including those which aren't possible to do in S3 efficiently (such as random writes, renames, or file appends). Because the caching layer is durable, we can safely asynchronously apply these changes to the S3 bucket. Most operations appear in the S3 bucket within a minute…

Regatta is a write-through cache for s3 bucket under its supervision? I guess then external changes to that bucket is a no-no? Any plans to expand to other stores, like R2 (I ask since unlike S3, R2 egress is free)?

Hey there, that's sort of the correct way to think about it -- notably that our caching layer is high-durability, so we can keep recent writes in the cache safely. External changes to the bucket are okay! Lots of customers need to (for example) ingest data into S3, then process it on a file system, and that totally works. The only thing that isn't supported is editing the same file from both S3 and the file system simultaneously. We think this is a super rare case, and probably doesn't exist today (because there isn't anything that bridges S3 and file semantics yet).

We support all S3-compatible storage services today, including R2, GCS, and MinIO.

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