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The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

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Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#281

Post by seabass-labrax »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #235
ggm wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some economies, to be an engineer means a chartered engineer, which demands completion of a formal assessment by the national engineering council. I'm not throwing shade on you, my degree from 1982 was 1 year too early to make certification in my field and I have worked for 42 years in software and systems without charter status. I am however cautious of using the word. I call myself a computer scientist even when…

I see this type of comment on HN frequently. I have a dim view of national certifications for software engineering or computer science. Are there any highly advanced economies that have "a formal assessment by the national engineering council" for software engineering or computer science? If so, are they useful? Do they actually indicate quality? For me, the field(s) are changing so fast, that it hardly makes sense.…

> Are there any highly advanced economies that have "a formal assessment by the national engineering council" for software engineering or computer science?

The EUR ING certificate from Engineers Europe can be awarded to those who have attained a degree in engineering, but also for those with "no exemplifying formal qualifications, but will have engaged in professional Career Learning and peer review via the individual route".

https://www.engineerseurope.com/what-eur-ing-certificate

Since Engineers Europe is a private organization (albeit one that is widely recognized), I would imagine that individual European countries have their own rules about when someone can call themselves an engineer. I am pretty sure that Germany only requires a degree for instance. Looser still are the rules in Britain: the UK does not require any certification at all for the basic term 'Engineer', although there are more specific titles that are strictly protected (ICTTech being one of them, and yes they really do use that silly abbreviation, obligatory italics included). Theoretically, a country could refuse to recognize certifications from Engineers Europe, but that would not exactly endear them to the European Commission or to other European countries!

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#282

Post by ryanmcbride »

uncletaco wrote: post #228
ryanmcbride wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dropped out and became an engineer at almost the exact same time. I've thought about going back for a degree but I was always so horribly bad at school that it's scared me off. I was bad at it mainly for undiagnosed ADHD reasons that I'm now getting successfully treated, but I'm still worried that if I went back the same things would just happen again. I'd join a class, I'd already kind of know what they're teachin…

I dropped out of school for adhd reasons and after getting treatment I went back and finished my last couple semesters (and wrote a novel, that first year on vyvanse was insanely productive). I found it a lot easier to engage with the work and pay attention long enough to take notes in class.

I was skeptical when I first started treatment because I've internalized the whole "You don't have ADHD you're just lazy" thing for literally my entire life, and then imagine my surprise that the medicine designed specifically to make my brain work, actually makes my brain work!

I still get feelings of skepticism that it actually does anything every once in a while. Despite the overwhelming evidence from my wife, my coworkers, and my life in general that it absolutely does.

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#283

Post by kridsdale1 »

Swizec wrote: post #123
bitcurious wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We had this. It worked well, in my opinion at least, and the number of complaints and straight up threats because kids would learn things "they shouldn't be" was just… insanely frustrating. Can you give examples? Are we talking evolution or addition?

> Can you give examples? Are we talking evolution or addition? Not GP but I can share a personal experience from high school: I was extremely advanced in English class. Like would literally finish a 45min exam in 10min and get an A. This caused problems for the teacher. For one I was constantly bored and disruptive of others around me because I was bored and needed friends to chat with. But this made their grades suf…

I was the same in math and science. I remember being told “You are not supposed to know that, and who told you?” angrily. My moment of disillusionment with authority.

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#284

Post by throwaway2037 »

Vegenoid wrote: post #105
jerf wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that it should be the present. Oh, I've been an engineer for a while and I know the system can't turn on a dime, it would take some time. However, we should be seeing visible progress towards this goal, and frankly, if anything, the system continues to be moving in the other direction, lowering bars to try to get everyone into the exact same level long after it should be clear that lowering the bar sti…

Large bureaucracy wants people to be as fungible as possible, so that systems can be designed that interact with fungible units instead of complex, multifaceted individuals.

I reject this kind of thinking.

To be clear, most engineers at FAANG would describe their own companies as a "large bureaucracy", yet, the engineers at these places are highly skilled, "complex, multifaceted individuals". Their hiring strategy has demonstrated this time and time again on HN discussions. It is insanely hard to get hired into these places. There must be at least 10 qualified candidates for each role. And, weirdly, I would say that almost all of the most highly skilled software engineers that I have known in my career are also the most dynamic. By definition, that makes them fungible because they can learn new skills so quickly.

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#285

Post by forgetfreeman »

crimsoneer wrote: post #54
forgetfreeman wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been consistent reporting for two decades that screens are leading to measurable reductions in attention span. Three decades of reports linking the internet and digital culture with mental health issues. What evidence is missing?

I'd be particularly keen on evidence affecting primary outcomes - eg, are people genuinly more productive or healthier. Attention span is an interesting metric, but if it doesn't directly affect how much work you can do or the quality of it in a meaningful way, I am less fussed.

Given reports on multitasking consistently show it degrades performance this kinda seems like a slam dunk?

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#286

Post by Sanzig »

jackbravo wrote: post #254
quacksilver wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sad WGU is only for US citizens. I hear lots of good things about it but can't join in.

Yes, I'm wondering if there are alternatives outside the US to get a full undergraduate or master's degree online at your own pace.

In Canada, Thompson Rivers University offers a bachelor's in computer science as a fully distance option. On the French language side, Université TÉLUQ (part of the Université du Québec network) also offers a BS in CS.

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#287

Post by forgetfreeman »

kazinator wrote: post #67
forgetfreeman wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been consistent reporting for two decades that screens are leading to measurable reductions in attention span. Three decades of reports linking the internet and digital culture with mental health issues. What evidence is missing?

People with an Internet- connected screen appear to have a short attention span because they have instant access to a multitude of things that they're interested in, competing for their attention with whatever you want them to be focusing on. That what you want them to be focusing on is no longer the path of least boredom like it was in the previous era; the path of least boredom goes through their mobile device. Peo…

> People with an Internet- connected screen appear to have a short attention span because they have instant access to a multitude of things that they're interested in, competing for their attention with whatever you want them to be focusing on.

This is incorrect. There have been repeated studies that show a distinct decline in individuals ability to consume and process long-form text. Folks brains are literally remodeling towards ADHD-like behaviors.

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#288

Post by zie »

Most student devices are older Android or iPad tablets. Sometimes they get older generation Chromebooks. They are not getting M4 laptops. Then EdTech delivers MS teams level bloatware and expects it to run? This stuff is generally absolute garbage that even at the most optimistic barely works as advertised.

Lots of this stuff gets built with very little thought on how it's supposed to integrate into a classroom setting. None of it even attempts to integrate with the student grading or scheduling system(s).

We expect public school teachers to be:

* Very well educated. * Emotionally mature and able to understand/handle emotionally immature students. * Very good at their jobs. * Able to understand the dizzying array of laws and regulations around education. * Handle the politics of education(around what can be taught or not, what books can be used, etc.) * Having students who were promoted from the previous grade, even if they can't do previous grade level things(like say HS students that still can't read). * Teach to a test. * Teach to an individual up to their ability. * Teach 30+ students at once at the lower grades. * In Middle School/High School teaching over 200 unique students in a day. * Dealing with unreasonable demands by some parents. * Some students having special needs, diets. * Having little to no classroom level funding. * Understand and be educated in the latest tech. * In some states teach students that are hungry. * In some states carry guns to protect from school shooters.

All while also being paid poorly, if not terribly.

Sure, I can totally see that working out well.

If we paid teachers like we paid any other professional job(lawyers, doctors, etc), I guarantee we will get much higher calibre teachers. Teacher pay in the US hasn't even kept up with inflation over the past decade. Not to mention salaries of all the support staff around teachers to help them thrive in the classroom.

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#289

Post by theamk »

hibikir wrote: post #191
dpkirchner wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, and that strong bias is likely driven by cost, not the equity boogeyman that causes many a jerked knee.

Cost is a reason, but also there's social concerns. In the standardized system, all classmates share the same material, at the same speed. This shared experience disappears when every student is going at their own place, looking at a computer. This leads to the students being a bit more alienated from each other, and comparisons that go way past just a grade. When a classmate at the same age is covering material that…

American high schools (grades 9+) already give each student customized schedule, so there is no single set of "classmates" anymore - a Computer Science class might have 9-th graders and 11-th graders sitting side-by-side. This does not reflect their knowledge levels, it only means that one student decided to take CS first, and other student decided to leave CS for later and take some other class (like Physics) first.

This is why parents are unhappy: it's OK to skip most math classes entirely and only do state-mandated minimum... but skipping _basic_ math classes and jumping straight to advanced ones is not allowed.

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#290

Post by 2snakes »

cmontella wrote: post #193

The problem with edtech is they make the key mistake of taking the curriculum intended for pen / paper / chalkboard and they just put it on a tablet and expect it to work. Seymour Papert wrote "Mindstorms" about this very topic in the 80s when PCs were being put in classrooms. Back then, teachers took the multiplication tables they had been doing with pen and paper and just made kids do them on the computer. Teachers…

Yes, there was also a thing known as the Great Media Debate in the 90's iirc. MOOCs have a less than 10% completion rate. Media by itself is not the answer. What makes a big difference is teaching techniques and things like superhuman spaced repetition and system adaptation. See how Math Academy does it: https://www.mathacademy.com/pedagogy
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