Live data from Hacker News

It's Time to Stop Taking Sam Altman at His Word

theatlantic.com

281–290 of 599 posts

Re: It's Time to Stop Taking Sam Altman at His Word

#281

To recap OpenAI's decisions over the past year: * They burned up the hype for GPT-5 on 4o and o1, which are great step changes but nothing the competition can't quickly replicate. * They dissolved the safety team. * They switched to for profit and are poised to give Altman equity. * All while hyping AGI more than ever. All of this suggests to me that Altman is in short-term exit preparation mode, not planning for AGI…

It does look like an exit. Employees were given the chance to cash in some of their shares at $86 billion valuation. Altman is getting shares. New "investors" are Microsoft and Nvidia. Nvidia will get the money back as revenue and fuel the hype for other customers. Microsoft will probably pay in Azure credits. If OpenAI does not make profit within two years, the "investment" will turn into a loan, which probably mean…

I think for anyone who has been intimately involved with this last generation of "unicorns", it really does not look like an "exit" if that means bankruptcy, end of the company, betrayal of goals, or what have you: for a high-growth startup of approximately ten years, finding liquidity for employees is perhaps counter-intuitively a sign of deep maturity and that the company is concerned for the long haul (and that investors/the market believe this is likely).

At about the ten year mark, there has to be a changing of the guards from the foot soldiers who give their all that an unlikely institution could come to exist in the world at scale to people concerned more with stabilizing that institution and ensuring its continuity. In almost every company that has reached such scale in the last decade, this has often meant a transition from an executive team formed of early employees to a more senior C-team from elsewhere with a different skillset. In a world context where the largest companies are more likely to stay private than IPO, it's a profoundly important move to allow some liquidity for longterm employees, who otherwise might be forced to stay working at the company long past physical burnout.

Re: It's Time to Stop Taking Sam Altman at His Word

#282
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a human brain definitely counts as "general intelligence", that implemented in silicon is enough to get basically all the things promised by AGI: if that's done at the 20 watts per brain that biology manages, then all of humanity can be simulated within the power envelope of the USA electrical grid… three times over. So far the only thing that has been proven is we can get low entropy from all the low entropy we've…

You are using "entropy" in a way I do not recognise. Whatever you mean, our brains prove it's possible to have a system that uses 20 watts to demonstrate human-level intelligence.

Whatever you mean, it took 13 billion years and the whole universe as far as we can tell to create the 20 watt human intelligence brain. And it doesn't take 20 watt of energy to maintain humans, it takes a whole ecosystem capable of sustaining a human population. And for us to operate at our current level of information processing it takes a whole planetary civilization. So no you haven't proved anything by saying that a human brain consumes only 20 watts of energy. We spread an awful lot of entropy around that has to be kept away from our delicate biological and social systems.

You're positing a way to create human intelligence-like in a bottle, that's the same as speculating about the shape of a reality where we have FTL travel or teleportation or whatever else you fancy.

If we're talking about what current ML/AI can do, they can extract patterns from training data and than apply those patterns to other inputs. This can give us great automation, but it won't give us anything better than the training data, solve physics, global warming, poverty or give us human intelligence in a chip.

Whatever quantity Q of entropy in the training data, the total output will be more Q all accounted for. That's true for humans and machines. No shape of possible AGI will give us any output with less Q than the combination of inputs had. The dream that a machine will solve all problems that humanity can't hinges on negating that, which goes against thermodynamics.

As it stands, the planet cannot cope with all the entropy we're spreading around. It will eventually collapse civilization/the ecosystem, whatever buckles first, from the excess entropy. Because global warming, poverty, or ignorance is just entropy. Disorder. Things not being just so as we need them to be.

Re: It's Time to Stop Taking Sam Altman at His Word

#283

> At a high enough level of abstraction, Altman’s entire job is to keep us all fixated on an imagined AI future I think the job of a CEO is not to tell you the truth, and the truth is probably more often than not, the opposite. What if gpt5 is vaporware, and there’s no equivalent 3 to 4 leap to be realized with current deep learning architectures? What is OpenAI worth then?

A typical CEO's job is to guard and enforce a narrative. Great ones also work at adding to the narrative. But it is always about the narrative.

I thought it was about directing the execution of the company business. Defining strategy and being a driving force behind it.

But you are right, we live in a post truth influencer driven world. It's all about the narrative.

Re: It's Time to Stop Taking Sam Altman at His Word

#284
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>one of the most valued markets ... is based on a stack that is available to anyone The sophisticated investors are not betting on future increasing valuations based on current LLMs or the next incremental iterations of it. That's a "static" perspective based on what outsiders currently see as a specific product or tech stack. Instead, you have to believe in a "dynamic" landscape where OpenAI the organization of empl…

I'd say that Microsoft's moat was the copyright law and ability to bully the hardware companies with exclusive distribution contracts. Writing a new DOS (or Windows 3) from scratch is something a lot of developers could do. They just couldn't do it legally. And thus it was easy to bully Compaq and others into only distributing PCs with DOS/Windows installed. For some time you even had to pay the Microsoft fee when yo…

If this was their most important moat for you, what is their moat now that it is gone?

Re: It's Time to Stop Taking Sam Altman at His Word

#285

To recap OpenAI's decisions over the past year: * They burned up the hype for GPT-5 on 4o and o1, which are great step changes but nothing the competition can't quickly replicate. * They dissolved the safety team. * They switched to for profit and are poised to give Altman equity. * All while hyping AGI more than ever. All of this suggests to me that Altman is in short-term exit preparation mode, not planning for AGI…

I don't know anything, but isn't Sam already rich? And, if OpenAI is in a position to capture profits in an expanding AI industry, isn't this the best possible time to lock-in equity for long term gains and trillionaireship?

For many people, sadly, one can never be rich enough. My point is, planning for both short term exit, and long term gains, is essentially the same in this particular situation. What a boon! Nice problem to have!

Re: It's Time to Stop Taking Sam Altman at His Word

#286

To recap OpenAI's decisions over the past year: * They burned up the hype for GPT-5 on 4o and o1, which are great step changes but nothing the competition can't quickly replicate. * They dissolved the safety team. * They switched to for profit and are poised to give Altman equity. * All while hyping AGI more than ever. All of this suggests to me that Altman is in short-term exit preparation mode, not planning for AGI…

Let's go with the no next gen models, then we'd be looking at an operationalized service. I might be up for paying $20/month for one. Certainly more value than I get from Netflix. All I would want from the service is a simple low-friction UI and continued improvements to keep up with or surpass competitors. They could manage that. The long-term problem may be access to quality/human-created training data. Especially…

Theres never going to be quality data at tge scale they need it.

At best, theres a slow march to incremental improvements that look exactly like how human culture developed knowledge.

And all the downsides will remain, the same way people, despite hundreds of good sourxes of info still prefer garbage.

Re: It's Time to Stop Taking Sam Altman at His Word

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really follow Altman's behavior much, but just in general: > If he sincerely thought AGI was on the horizon he wouldn't be eyeing the exit If such a thing could exist and was right around the corner, why would you need a company for it? Couldn't the AGI manage itself better than you could? Job's done, time to get a different hobby.

Let’s say you got AGI, and it approximated a not so bright impulsive 12 year old boy. That would be an insane technological leap, but hardly one you’d want running the show. AGI doesn’t mean smarter than the best humans.

If it's stuck at 12 year old level intelligence then it's not generally intelligent. 12 years can learn to think like 13 year olds and so on.

Re: It's Time to Stop Taking Sam Altman at His Word

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it still won't produce the type of articles he produces. Because at the very least he is capable of writing new articles from something the LLM doesn't have: his brain. Seriously. This is just the parrot thing again. The fact that AI proponents confuse the form of words with authorial intent is mindbending to me. Wouldn't have confused Magritte, I think.

It would cost around $5 and about 5 hours of work to prove you wrong...

You clearly, clearly do not understand what I am saying. But sure, waste your time and money making a parrot that, unlike the author it mimics, is incapable of introspection, reflection, intellectual evolution or simply changing its mind.

Words are words. Writers are writers. Writers are not words.

ETA: consider what would actually be necessary to prove me wrong. And when you hear back from David Karpf about his willingness to take part in that experiment, write a blog post about it and any results, post it to HN.

I am sure people here will happily suggest topics for the articles. I, for example, would love to hear what your hypothetical ChatKarpf has to say about influences from his childhood that David Karpf has never written about, or things he believed at age five that aren't true and how that affects his writing now.

Do you see what I mean? These aren't even particularly forced examples: writers draw on private stuff, internal thoughts, internal contradictions, all the time, consciously and unconsciously.

Re: It's Time to Stop Taking Sam Altman at His Word

#289
post #178

> Altman expects that his technology will fix the climate, help humankind establish space colonies, and discover all of physics. He predicts that we may have an all-powerful superintelligence “in a few thousand days.” It seems fair to say Altman has completed his Musk transformation. Some might argue it's inevitable. And indeed Bill Gates' books in the 90s made a lot of wild promises. But nothing that egregious.

Both of them remind me of Elizabeth Holmes. She ran Theranos through a promise of lies long enough they turned into fraud. So far Musk has been pushing the lies out continually to try and prevent any possible exposure to fraud. Like "Getting to Mars will save humanity" or the latest "We will never reach Mars unless Trump is president again". Then again, self driving cars are just around the corner, as stated in 2014…

This is some really out there thinking, and I think you need to do some basic fact checking bc some of this just isn’t true

Re: It's Time to Stop Taking Sam Altman at His Word

#290
post #103

Distorting the old Chinese proverb, “The best time to stop taking Sam Altman at his word was the first time he opened his mouth. The second best time is now”. We’ve known he’s a scammer for a long time. https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/04/06/1048981/worldcoi... https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/richardnieva/worldcoin-...

I would love to read a solid exposé of Worldcoin, but I don’t think I will get that from Buzzfeed or from The Atlantic. Both seemed to be agenda driven and hot headed. I’d like a more impartial breakdown ala AP-style news reporting.

> I don’t think I will get that from Buzzfeed

BuzzFeed News is not BuzzFeed. They were a serious news website¹ staffed by multiple investigative journalists, including a Pulitzer winner heading that division. They received plenty of awards and recognition.² It is indeed a shame they shared a name with BuzzFeed and that no doubt didn’t help, but it does not detract from their work.

> or from The Atlantic.

There was no Atlantic link. The other source was MIT Technology Review.

> I’d like a more impartial breakdown ala AP-style news reporting.

The Associated Press did report on it³, and the focus was on the privacy implications too. The other time they reported on it⁴ was to announce Spain banned it for privacy concerns.

¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BuzzFeed_News

² https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BuzzFeed_News#Awards_and_recog...

³ https://apnews.com/article/worldcoin-cryptocurrency-sam-altm...

https://apnews.com/article/worldcoin-spain-eyeballs-privacy-...

Post reply on HN