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Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

innocenceproject.org

281–290 of 514 posts

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#282

Does anyone find it deeply disturbing that the justice system will just sit on its own hands when presented with new evidence? It seems like prosecutors are more interested in maintaining a hi conviction rate rather than seeking justice. Judges seem totally apathetic.

In this case the prosecutor actively pushed against the execution, arguing that his guilt was no longer beyond a reasonable doubt. The blame for this lies squarely on the Missouri Supreme Court and Gov. Parson (who has never once granted clemency in a capital case).

“The” prosecutor was not pushing against the execution. “A” prosecutor was, who did not have significantly greater relationship to the case than thousands of other prosecutors in this country. I don’t see how this guy’s opinion is more relevant that anyone else’s.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we should have capital punishment at all, anywhere, and certainly this is a textbook example of why, but circumstantial evidence is real evidence, admissible in court cases.

This is true, but circumstantial evidence is seldom enough to have the DA bring a case to trial because it is weak evidence. At least, thats my impression im not a lawyer.

My understanding is that the opposite is closer to the truth: most cases are made on circumstantial evidence. Jury instructions apparently tell jurors not to weight it any differently than direct evidence.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#284
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you rebut every point in the article for us? Second, can you precisely identify the lies?

What’s the value of me doing that, when the case has been prosecuted and was argued in all instances of appellate court literally to death? You can read court opinions, they are plentiful in information, and do not suffer from elementary logic errors.

You made at least two claims: " it prevented lying activists from freeing an obviously guilty"

(1) activists are lying

(2) obviously guilty

If you cannot rebut the points made, the second claim is not supported. The article lists points that exactly put into question the guilty verdict in this case

If you cannot point out the specific lies, your first claim is then also unsupported.

You seem to have started in a rebuttal when stating: "and do not suffer from elementary logic errors." Perhaps you can demonstrate those logic errors? (Preferably with full quotes from the article)

I am certainly very specifically interested in the lies you believe to have been conveyed.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are severely misunderstanding the role of DNA evidence here - you suggest that those arguing for Williams' innocence (including The Innocence Project) rely solely on the absence of DNA evidence linking Williams to the crime. However, this misrepresents the argument. The absence of DNA evidence is significant not because DNA is expected to be found in every case, but because other substantial forensic evidence (fi…

There is no objective definition of reasonable doubt. DNA evidence of someone other then the accused but not the accused at the crime scene wouldn't introduce reasonable doubt if there was a video of the accused committing the crime, so it doesn't inherently introduce reasonable doubt, but only if the evidence against the accused isn't strong enough, which is again subjective. Responding to an admission of subjectivi…

MAI-CR 402.03

Proof beyond a reasonable doubt is proof that leaves you firmly convinced of the defendant's guilt. The law does not require proof that overcomes every possible doubt. If, after your consideration of all the evidence, you are firmly convinced that (a) (the) defendant is guilty of the offense charged, you will find him guilty. If you are not so convinced, you must give him the benefit of the doubt and find him not guilty.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#286
post #72

So it seems that the original case rested on the following: - Williams GF witness testimony, that Williams confessed to her. - Jailhouse witness testimony, that Williams had confessed to them. - That Williams had items (purse, laptop, etc.) in his car, on the day or day after the murder. But no DNA evidence? A death penalty seems pretty egregious, when you have that kind of evidence. Seems like there's plenty of reas…

The argument is that the girlfriend and jailhouse snitch both were looking to get the $10k reward money for his conviction. And that’s the only way the third point (had the items in the car) was known (from the girlfriend).

asaro had more reasons to make these claims

https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/21/us/marcellus-williams-missour...

>And though Picus’ laptop was recovered, the prosecuting attorney’s office says Roberts told investigators Williams said he’d gotten it from Asaro – a claim Roberts reiterated in an affidavit signed in 2020. Jurors at trial never heard this assertion, which the prosecutor’s motion says illustrates “the person with the most direct connection to the crime” was “Laura Asaro, and not Marcellus Williams.”

additionally, they only made the statements after being threatened by police

>The woman at first denied having information about the crime, prosecutors’ motion states. But after meeting with police several times – and being promised charges she was facing would be dropped and told she would be eligible for the reward – Asaro eventually cooperated, telling police she had indeed seen Williams on the afternoon of the murder, the motion states.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we should have capital punishment at all, anywhere, and certainly this is a textbook example of why, but circumstantial evidence is real evidence, admissible in court cases.

This is true, but circumstantial evidence is seldom enough to have the DA bring a case to trial because it is weak evidence. At least, thats my impression im not a lawyer.

Actually the instructions tell the jury that how much weight to give to any evidence is up to them.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think even as a non-christian and especially if you comment like this you should know the absolute minimum about christianity: that the death penalty is obviously in the bible and commanded by God plenty of times

There's also testimony of God overturning / fulfilling prior commandments (Matthew 5:17–21, Acts 10:9–16). The Bible contains a lot of laws and punishments that aren't respected in the United States: selective quoting doesn't strike me as a particularly compelling argument. There's also testimony of Jesus disrupting an instance of capital punishment (John 8:3–11). There may have been procedural issues in that case, o…

It is important to understand the difference between moral laws, which are immutable, and other laws in the Bible, often categorized as civil or ceremonial.

In modern legal theory, we have a similar distinction, which you may know from Legally Blonde: malum in se (that which is inherently wrong) and malum prohibitum (that which is wrong because a lawful authority prohibits it). Example: endangering the safety of others by driving too fast is wrong in itself, while breaking the speed limit is wrong because the town said so.

The former type (moral, and in se) doesn't depend on the existence of a government or system of laws and justice. The latter type certainly does, and the wrongness of those things 1) is changeable at the will of the governing authority, 2) applies only to those properly under the authority, and 3) expires when the governing structure expires.

Christians believe the ten commandments are moral law, whereas when we get into the ins and outs of the ancient Israel system of justice, described at length in Leviticus, eg, we are seeing one civilization's implementation of that moral law into civil law, coupled with religious law and ceremonies that symbolized and pointed to deeper realities.

When Jesus says he does not abolish but fulfills the law (and he means all of the law, not just some laws), he can't mean you are now free to murder. He means if you murdered someone, you may yet receive eternal life and not eternal death, because he can pay the penalty on your behalf. He means he lived a perfectly moral life and can impute that to you. That's fulfillment of moral law.

It also doesn't mean eating pork was immoral and now it's moral. That dietary restriction was a malum prohibitum component of the ceremonial cleanness symbolism that was meant to point the Israelites to the reality of what happens to a soul that consumes unholy things. It was never immoral, only prohibited. But the law is fulfilled in that the symbol is no longer required. Jesus institutes a new symbol that fixates on his own holiness and cleanness imputed to us as if by eating it (the Lord's Supper). The early Christian movement quickly incorporated non-Jews who had no heritage of living under the authority of the Israelite state, which was, by this time, already expired/expiring, many times over through successive conquests and occupations by various other governments. Neither the non-Jewish Christians nor the Jewish Christians needed to abide by those laws, though many did for a time, as it was an integral part of cultural and religious custom.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#289
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the value of me doing that, when the case has been prosecuted and was argued in all instances of appellate court literally to death? You can read court opinions, they are plentiful in information, and do not suffer from elementary logic errors.

You made at least two claims: " it prevented lying activists from freeing an obviously guilty" (1) activists are lying (2) obviously guilty If you cannot rebut the points made, the second claim is not supported. The article lists points that exactly put into question the guilty verdict in this case If you cannot point out the specific lies, your first claim is then also unsupported. You seem to have started in a rebu…

My claims are supported by the arguments made by the prosecution in all instances of the appellate court, the arguments that jury and the appellate courts found convincing. Even the dissenting SCOTUS justices would not argue that the guy actually is innocent.

Again, can you explain to me what’s the value of me reiterating the same stuff that’s in the court documents? Do you think that activists should just be able to gish-gallop everyone by forcing them to repeatedly argue the exact same points?

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#290

Still not sure with so many of the (esp right leaning) in the US claiming to be christian, can also accept this as a punishment. But I get nonsense begets more nonsense.

I think even as a non-christian and especially if you comment like this you should know the absolute minimum about christianity: that the death penalty is obviously in the bible and commanded by God plenty of times

The Catholic Church at least is pretty strongly against it.
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