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WP Engine sent “cease and desist” letter to Automattic

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Re: WP Engine sent “cease and desist” letter to Automattic

#281
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100%. WP is GPL and they can use it how they like. And others are also allowed to call them out if they want to.

Yeah but people don't like to be manipulated. He didn't want to call them out, he wanted them to pay his company millions for licensing and used the community as leverage.

Did you not read the post? He wanted them to stop calling their fork of wordpress "Wordpress".

They either continue to use their fork and call it something other than wordpress, or they use an unmodified version of wordpress and are permitted to call it "wordpress", or they pay for rights to use the mark for their modified version.

No doubt this has all stemmed from the issue of them taking and not giving back. If they aren't going to play nicely and pay proportionally for development as per the pledges, then they can pay for the right to use the mark for their fork. Why should automattic and dozens of others pledge thousands of hours of dev time per week when one of the biggest users pledges 40 hours? It may be permitted as per the GPL, but use of the mark is subject to fair use - and fair use doesn't cover them passing off a fork of wordpress as wordpress. Clearly that technicality is being used to force them to pay their share through licensing of the mark.

Re: WP Engine sent “cease and desist” letter to Automattic

#282
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matt admitted on reddit that he asked for 8% of annual revenue or ~40 million. https://www.reddit.com/r/Wordpress/comments/1fnz0h6/comment/... He posted this after receiving the C&D.

I think this guy is having some sort of legit mental health crisis.

I've been wondering this since his Tumblr dust-up earlier in the year.

Re: WP Engine sent “cease and desist” letter to Automattic

#283
post #280
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree. One of the criteria seems to be whether there is a reasonable substitute phrase or word to describe the product. I think we agree that there is no other word to describe the open-source package known as WordPress without using "WordPress". What would you call your Wordpress hosting service if not "WordPress Hosting"? What would you call your Linux Hosting? >Your allowed nominative use and/or a software lice…

Again, take a look at the wording from Red Hat for comparison: https://www.redhat.com/en/about/trademark-guidelines-and-pol... https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal:Trademark_guidelines#Tr... The examples Red Hat gives as acceptable are likely similar wording to how you would offer WordPress hosting without titling your service merely “Enterprise WordPress”. As for why you don’t receive trademark rights when you are g…

I'm not sure what specific point you're making here. The question at hand is how you *know* that the WPEngine usage is trademark infringement under the law. Nothing you've provided anywhere, at any time, supports that claim.

What you've linked here are the trademark owners wishes about how their marks be used. They are perfectly reasonable, sure. But they don't supersede the doctrine of fair use. That's the important bit. Do you understand that guidelines, requests or even contracts do not superceed the law?

Both your links are titled as "guidelines". Because that's all they are. They are guidelines as how the trademark owner wishes their marks to be used. If you violate the guidelines, you may or may not be in legal trouble but that's up to a court. Not Redhat.

From your Redhat link:

>In these Guidelines, we are not trying to limit the lawful use of our trademarks, including their “fair use,” but rather describe for you what we consider the parameters of lawful use to be. Trademark law can be ambiguous, so these Guidelines are meant to inform you about what we believe are acceptable uses.

And this:

>As for why you don’t receive trademark rights when you are granted a license to code:

This is wayy out of left field. Where did I suggest such a thing? I have no confusion whatsoever about the distinction between copyright and trademark. I'm not sure why you're bringing it up.

Listen, since I claimed the use is likely covered by Nominative Fair Use you've replied four different times and not once come close to properly articulating a legal argument as why you disagree. For that reason, I'm going to bow out of this conversation now. Cheers.

Re: WP Engine sent “cease and desist” letter to Automattic

#284
post #283
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, take a look at the wording from Red Hat for comparison: https://www.redhat.com/en/about/trademark-guidelines-and-pol... https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal:Trademark_guidelines#Tr... The examples Red Hat gives as acceptable are likely similar wording to how you would offer WordPress hosting without titling your service merely “Enterprise WordPress”. As for why you don’t receive trademark rights when you are g…

I'm not sure what specific point you're making here. The question at hand is how you *know* that the WPEngine usage is trademark infringement under the law. Nothing you've provided anywhere, at any time, supports that claim. What you've linked here are the trademark owners wishes about how their marks be used. They are perfectly reasonable, sure. But they don't supersede the doctrine of fair use. That's the important…

>>>Your allowed nominative use and/or a software license does not give you *a license* to title your own services with their trademarks.

>>Citation?

>[academic paper by two lawyers in this space warning exactly that]

Farewell friend!

Re: WP Engine sent “cease and desist” letter to Automattic

#285
post #275
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do the majority of the work, so they get to decide. That's how it works everywhere. If WP Engine wants to decide they should invest the same 4,000 hours/week.

That's the problem though. It's a chicken and egg issue. Those donated hours could be directed towards things that aren't in WPEngines interest. To use an analogy: it's taxation without representation. That seems counter to the open source ethos. If everything was handled by an independent, transparent and accountable foundation then this would be a different conversation. It isn't. It's handled by a private, for pro…

> Those donated hours could be directed towards things that aren't in WPEngines interest

I have a hard time seeing how that can happen. WP-Engine still decides what bits of WordPress they work on – it's just a matter of having developers who work on it.

Re: WP Engine sent “cease and desist” letter to Automattic

#286
post #284
post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what specific point you're making here. The question at hand is how you *know* that the WPEngine usage is trademark infringement under the law. Nothing you've provided anywhere, at any time, supports that claim. What you've linked here are the trademark owners wishes about how their marks be used. They are perfectly reasonable, sure. But they don't supersede the doctrine of fair use. That's the important…

>>>Your allowed nominative use and/or a software license does not give you *a license* to title your own services with their trademarks. >>Citation? >[academic paper by two lawyers in this space warning exactly that] Farewell friend!

For the last time. The defence argued by WPE's lawyers in one of Nominative. Fair. Use. If your source doesn't address Nominative. Fair. Use. then it isn't a relevant counterpoint. Jesus, it's not complicated.

Only one of the three links you provided as a source even mentions it. And that mention is in the context of (paraphrase) "nothing here is intended to take away your fair use rights".

When you have anything that addresses the issue we've been discussing, I'll be happy to read it. Let me be clear. This isn't an open call to fire any and all articles about trademark in FOSS at me. If they don't address NFE. They aren't relevant. Period.

Please, please do a search and replace for "fair use" before responding with yet another link.

Now that that's out of the way. Here's an actual lawyer with commentary that is *directly on topic*:

    Descriptive and nominative fair use
    I am not a US trademark lawyer, but to my mind much of this ‘case’ falls to be considered by reference to the defences to infringement known as ‘descriptive fair use’ and ‘nominative fair use’ (nominative fair use being the more likely defence).

    The International Trademark Association describes ‘descriptive fair use’ and ‘nominative fair use’ as follows:

    “Descriptive fair use permits use of another’s trademark to describe the user’s products or services, rather than as a trademark to indicate the source of the goods or services. This usually is appropriate where the trademark concerned has a descriptive meaning in addition to its secondary meaning as a trademark. For example, WD-40 Company’s use of the term “inhibitor” was found to be descriptive fair use of the registered mark THE INHIBITOR when used to describe a long-term corrosion inhibitor (WD-40) product.

    Nominative fair use permits use of another’s trademark to refer to the trademark owner’s goods and services associated with the mark. Nominative fair use generally is permissible as long as: (1) the product or service in question is not readily identifiable without use of the trademark; (2) only so much of the mark as is reasonably necessary to identify the product or service is used; and (3) use of the mark does not suggest sponsorship or endorsement by the trademark owner. For example, one could refer to “the professional basketball team from Chicago,” but it is simpler and more understandable to say the Chicago Bulls. Here, the trademark is used only to describe the thing rather than to identify its source, and does not imply sponsorship or endorsement. … .”

   I have not seen the exhibits to Automattic/WooCommerce’s cease and desist letter and so cannot comment on all the circumstances in which the companies are asserting that WP Engine has infringed their trademarks or rights as exclusive licensee. However, as a long-time WP Engine customer who is therefore pretty familiar with WP Engine’s website and marketing, it strikes me that at least a good deal of WP Engine’s uses of the words ‘WordPress’, ‘WooCommerce’ and ‘Woo’ are descriptive/nominative in nature and therefore non-infringing. It is certainly not within Automattic/WooCommerce’s power to prevent all descriptive/nominative uses of those words by WP Engine. Context is key. And I do note that WPEngine says things like this on its website:

   Who created WooCommerce?

   WooCommerce is developed and supported by Automattic, the creators of WordPress.co and Jetpack. The plugin’s development teams also work with hundreds of independent contributors to provide regular updates, new features, and improved security measures that keep your store up-to-date and protected.

    And when WP Engine talks about the likes of ‘WooCommerce hosting’ and that the ‘path to WooCommerce® success starts here’, the webpage states expressly in the footer that WooCommerce is a registered trademark of Automattic Inc.

Link: https://wpandlegalstuff.com/automattic-and-woocommerces-ceas...

Bonus link (it's more off the cuff and much less serious - but it will give you a feel for how a legal professional might see this case): https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2261286307

Re: WP Engine sent “cease and desist” letter to Automattic

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tortious interference requires that the interfering party induce the party to the contract to a breach of the contract. Where's that element?

Inducement? Like "We have blocked the ability to access plugin and other repositories for customers of WPEngine. We have not done so for this other, "independent", for-profit entity (that just so happens to be owned by the same person)"?

Inducement to what? Where's the breach of contract being encouraged?
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