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How America's universities became debt factories

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Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#281

Post by kungito »

mbostleman wrote: post #279
lenerdenator wrote: post #89

1) Move most good careers that do not require a college degree out of the country for the benefit of shareholders 2) Tell everyone born between 1980 and 1995 that they'll be unable to compete in the global marketplace if they don't get at least some post-high school education, and imply that the mere presence of a degree will help instead of having a specific type of degree 3) Have next-to-zero standards for public f…

For number 2, how did you come up with the very narrow 15 year window of birth from 1980 to 1995? I was born in 1963 and for the entirety of my upbringing it was a forgone conclusion that the lack of post high school education had a dire and inescapable consequence in future earning and socioeconomic status.

Because at that time an engineering degree still had some weight because not everyone can get it. This inflation 9f degrees caused the degrees to have way less value only for the next generation

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#283

Post by BJones12 »

zozbot234 wrote: post #259
lapcat wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're correct except for one word: "lucrative". To this day, almost two decades after I left my philosophy PhD program (without a PhD), I still have massive student loan debt. Even if I had completed my degree, though, philosophy PhDs aren't particularly lucrative. Tenured professors at major universities do ok, but the road to getting tenure-track jobs and then tenure is littered with the bodies of grad students. I…

> It's worth noting, by the way, that the United States has a shortage of medical doctors. That's a pipeline problem. What the U.S. actually has is a severe bottleneck in available places at medical schools and for residency training.

What the U.S. actually has is a group of people intent on keeping their doctor wages high by limiting supply through regulation and bottleneck creation.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#284

Post by brigadier132 »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #245
brigadier132 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a source I found and repayment rates tanked after 2009 https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/education/our-insights/t...

This source strongly suggests that the original claim is not true. I don't understand exactly what the X axis is meant to be, but if we assume the 2012 number is meant to represent 2009 graduates, it seems incredibly unlikely that the median graduate has made no progress after 12 years if ~62% of them began making progress after 3 years. (Can you come up with a story where the two numbers might be consistent? Probabl…

I can't find the source for the stat I mentioned originally but the data I did find doesn't paint the rosy picture of a getting college degree with debt being an unambiguously +EV decision.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#285

Post by TeaBrain »

lapcat wrote: post #272
TeaBrain wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it was based on the number of dollars, but based on which figures? It was an assertion conjured out of thin air. If there are five times as many undergrad students as grad students and a similar percentage of grad students had to take out student loans, then this would mean that students are incurring on average five times more debt for graduate school. This is without taking into consideration that a far h…

It looks like graduate debt was approaching the majority and could in fact be a majority in 2024: "If these trends continue, graduate loan disbursements may exceed undergraduate disbursements in the next few years." https://sites.ed.gov/ous/files/2023/08/OCE_GraduateDebtRepor...

You're conflating current disbursements with the outstanding debt, which is what the original assertion was on. Either way it is looked at though, their assertion is wrong.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#286

Post by User23 »

lenerdenator wrote: post #89

1) Move most good careers that do not require a college degree out of the country for the benefit of shareholders 2) Tell everyone born between 1980 and 1995 that they'll be unable to compete in the global marketplace if they don't get at least some post-high school education, and imply that the mere presence of a degree will help instead of having a specific type of degree 3) Have next-to-zero standards for public f…

> cannot use discretion in deciding who he gets to forgive for loans

You present this as though it doesn't make sense, but as far as the federal government is concerned forgiving a debt is spending (which is why the IRS will tax you for forgiven debts, income is the other side of spending). And spending is explicitly under Congress's authority.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#287

Post by Amezarak »

TeaBrain wrote: post #251
bigstrat2003 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not single class on how to manage a bank account, or even the most basic education about investments or actual wealth building. Not everything can be, or is supposed to be, taught by schools. Your parents should've taught you those things, and if they didn't do that they failed you.

Plenty of parents do not know how to manage their finances any more than any other things that they do not know, which a school is supposed to be responsible for teaching. Financial literacy is one of the most important things that a person can learn. Society would surely benefit if classes were taught on the subject in high school.

Financial literacy for the average person consists of two things: do not buy things you don't really need / don't spend more than you have, and compound interest. I can't speak for anyone else but I did learn what compounding interest was in school.

I can't imagine a whole class being dedicated to these topics, but then people who only need to fill out a 1040 also complain they "weren't taught how to do taxes"; i.e., fill out a form with simple instructions provided.

At some point we have to recognize the bar is already pretty low. There is no wizardry involved in "financial literacy" unless you start getting into advanced investment / retirement topics. It just takes a very simple attitude shift. The problem is not that most people are too uneducated to figure out that a 40k/year job doesn't pay for a 100k degree: they learned that in elementary school. The problem is they never even think about it, and if they do, they don't care. I don't even mean this in a negative way: it's a lifestyle that would stress me right into the psych ward, but millions of Americans never worry themselves about how they're going to pay for something so long as they can keep the lights on and eat this month.

If they did care, they would go to cheaper schools to get the degrees; look how many of these degrees come from outrageously priced private schools when cheaper options are readily available. Look at how many people drive around 50-80k SUVs. Americans complain a lot about prices but they are not actually that price sensitive. They just assume they can do whatever they want and the system at large will just work everything out.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#289

Post by zamfi »

lapcat wrote: post #247
zozbot234 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bulk of education debt in the U.S. is not about undergrad degrees in English literature or the like. By and large, it gets incurred either for lucrative postgrad degrees (MBA, law, medical etc.) or for earning degrees at "non-traditional" for-profit colleges.

You're correct except for one word: "lucrative". To this day, almost two decades after I left my philosophy PhD program (without a PhD), I still have massive student loan debt. Even if I had completed my degree, though, philosophy PhDs aren't particularly lucrative. Tenured professors at major universities do ok, but the road to getting tenure-track jobs and then tenure is littered with the bodies of grad students. I…

Well, the OP did say “the bulk of” — some people, like you, are surely carrying debt for non-lucrative degrees.

But the pipeline of lawyers, doctors, MBAs, etc. is quite a bit larger than self-pay philosophy PhDs, and a large fraction of those professional degrees are full-freight, $70k/year (plus living expenses!) of pure debt.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#290

Post by dachworker »

baq wrote: post #201
dachworker wrote: post #25

Meanwhile, I know of German and Dutch peers of mine who upon completing their masters in Europe, enrolled in California to do a second Masters ( at the time I believe they paid in the range of $100k) for the VISA and internship opportunities. And IIRC, the bet paid off because they all found employment in California, with salaries 3x to 4x what they could get here.

This is also very unfair towards the Dutch and German taxpayer. These countries ended up donating their money and educator time to the US. If your constitution includes provisions for free education, it might also be super hard to fix. (E.g. Poland.)

Their parents paid taxes like everyone else. If anything I would say it is unfair, that they are forced to move to the US, because the imbeciles in power mismanaged the economy so much that there are few adequate jobs for them, and the local Germany/Dutch economy is not competitive on the world stage.
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