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Leaving Neovim for Zed

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Re: Leaving Neovim for Zed

#281

Post by lelanthran »

Aeolun wrote: post #271
lelanthran wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That feels perfectly reasonable for what I imagine is 99% of all developers, so while sad, I can imagine why that use case is not very high on their list of priorities. I think you might be under the impression that what the GP is complaining about is having the default copy and paste go to the system clipboard. This is not what is happening; in Vim all modifications are saved to the default register. Making the de…

I assume all of these are some special combination of keys/modifiers? While I agree it’s less than ideal, at least you always know it’s going to happen if you are sort of familiar with Vim.

> I assume all of these are some special combination of keys/modifiers?

It's rare, in Vim, to not use commands. It is, after all, a command-oriented interface.

Any command that removes text or modifies text places the removed text into the default register.

> While I agree it’s less than ideal, at least you always know it’s going to happen if you are sort of familiar with Vim.

The problem with making the default register nuke the system clipboard is that almost all text editing commands are going to nuke the system clipboard.

Re: Leaving Neovim for Zed

#282

Post by lelanthran »

troupo wrote: post #276
lelanthran wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And the knowledge of `M-x sql-connect` came to you how? In a dream? Commands in Emacs are undiscoverable unless you know what to look for. It's one command that implements autocomplete which gives you access to the entire system. > It happens only because you're used to Emacs and Vim, That's my entire point! I learned the majority of Emacs and Vim commands well back in the mid-90s. > and unused to an IDE. Objective…

> It's one command that implements And you know this command how? You discovered it how? > That's my entire point! I learned the majority of Emacs and Vim commands well back in the mid-90s. Indeed. And now you complain about friction in IDEs because you refuse to learn IDEs to the same extent. > My point was about little frictions all adding up. Yes, yes they do. And I find there are significantly more frictions in E…

Why the antagonism? Programmable editors don't work for you, fine.

Why make personal attacks on me, like this:

> you pretend that

I'm not pretending anything.

> Thing is, you don't remember "fewer things" with Emacs/Vim. You end up remembering about the same, or greater number of things

Not true. Like I said, I use an IDE daily, and there's much more to remember to get the same functionality that I get out of (for example) Vim. It's easier for me to remember (for example) 10 nouns that can be combined with 10 verbs than to memorise 100 shortcuts.

You may find it easier to memorise 100 shortcuts rather than 10 verbs and 10 nouns, but I am certainly not pretending when I tell you that I find it easier to remember 20 things rather than 100 things.

Re: Leaving Neovim for Zed

#283

Post by chubot »

p4bl0 wrote: post #229

A lot of editors are being discussed here but I see nobody has mentioned Kate (KDE's Advanced Text Editor) [1] in the conversation yet, so I'm doing it. Kate is a very mature and capable editor, and even if I only use it on Linux I'm glad to know that it is also available on macOS and Windows. It natively supports LSP and has much, much more to offer in terms of project management, support for build system, support f…

I’m using Kate to write posts on https://oilshell.org! After a detour through many other tools, it’s great to find something open source and high quality.

I use vim to edit code, but I like copying and pasting paragraphs of prose with a mouse. I didn’t realize that until doing a lot of writing.

Re: Leaving Neovim for Zed

#284

Post by doix »

troupo wrote: post #276
lelanthran wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And the knowledge of `M-x sql-connect` came to you how? In a dream? Commands in Emacs are undiscoverable unless you know what to look for. It's one command that implements autocomplete which gives you access to the entire system. > It happens only because you're used to Emacs and Vim, That's my entire point! I learned the majority of Emacs and Vim commands well back in the mid-90s. > and unused to an IDE. Objective…

> It's one command that implements And you know this command how? You discovered it how? > That's my entire point! I learned the majority of Emacs and Vim commands well back in the mid-90s. Indeed. And now you complain about friction in IDEs because you refuse to learn IDEs to the same extent. > My point was about little frictions all adding up. Yes, yes they do. And I find there are significantly more frictions in E…

> > It just takes much less memory to remember 4 verbs and maybe 6 nouns in Vim to perform navigation, than learning 4x6=24 shortcuts

> Thing is, you don't remember "fewer things" with Emacs/Vim. You end up remembering about the same, or greater number of things on top of significantly worse functionality.

You don't understand vim yet you confidently state that it requires remembering more things. vim is like a language. You do not memorize entire English sentences when you choose to communicate with someone, it's the same in vim. You do not memorize how to do do something, but rather the grammar/verbs/nouns.

If you know that 'd' is the verb for deleting, and that 'w' is the motion for 'word', you can combine them into 'dw' to delete until the end of the word. When you later learn that '$' takes you to the end of the line, you know that you can do 'd$' to delete until the end of the line. You do not need to memorize 'd$' and 'dw' individually, just the motions and actions separately.

The same applies to actions, when you learn that y is yank (copy), you can apply the same 'w' and '$' motions in that cases to copy until the end of the word/line. That is what the poster means about verbs and nouns. Vim isn't discoverable, you cannot learn to use it without reading. But it is the most logically consistent "editing language" I have personally seen (alongside kakoune/helix).

You are also mixing up many concepts in your arguments. You can get LSP in vim/emacs and you can get vim-ish hotkeys in popular IDE's. The topic of this thread, Zed, is pretty vimmy and is closer to vs-code than it is to vim.

Re: Leaving Neovim for Zed

#285

Post by troupo »

lelanthran wrote: post #282
troupo wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's one command that implements And you know this command how? You discovered it how? > That's my entire point! I learned the majority of Emacs and Vim commands well back in the mid-90s. Indeed. And now you complain about friction in IDEs because you refuse to learn IDEs to the same extent. > My point was about little frictions all adding up. Yes, yes they do. And I find there are significantly more frictions in E…

Why the antagonism? Programmable editors don't work for you, fine. Why make personal attacks on me, like this: > you pretend that I'm not pretending anything. > Thing is, you don't remember "fewer things" with Emacs/Vim. You end up remembering about the same, or greater number of things Not true. Like I said, I use an IDE daily, and there's much more to remember to get the same functionality that I get out of (for ex…

> It's easier for me to remember (for example) 10 nouns that can be combined with 10 verbs than to memorise 100 shortcuts.

1. There are no nouns or verbs in Vim. There's a haphazardly built combination of letters that are laboriously explained as some grand design.

2. You keep coming up with random numbers that make no sense and pretend (yes, pretend) that they are somehow true and relevant

I didn't memorise 100 shortcuts.

The only reason you struggle to get the same functionality out of an IDE is that you don't want to invest as much time and energy into learning it as you did with emacs/vim. There's nothing inherently easier about memorising `M-x sql-connect` or 20 random letters in Vim than learning basic functionality and shortcuts of an IDE.

Re: Leaving Neovim for Zed

#286

Post by Filligree »

wyclif wrote: post #162
Filligree wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tries LazyVim, but on every startup it nags me about version updates, and :x somehow takes 2-3 seconds extra as well. I don't live in the editor; vim is only useful to me if it starts up and quits instantly.

It sounds like you don't have lazy loading enabled. No way it should take that long to start up, and version updates shouldn't be that frequent.

I don't know how to enable it. It isn't mentioned on the config screen, though not very much is.

Re: Leaving Neovim for Zed

#287

Post by troupo »

doix wrote: post #284
troupo wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's one command that implements And you know this command how? You discovered it how? > That's my entire point! I learned the majority of Emacs and Vim commands well back in the mid-90s. Indeed. And now you complain about friction in IDEs because you refuse to learn IDEs to the same extent. > My point was about little frictions all adding up. Yes, yes they do. And I find there are significantly more frictions in E…

> > It just takes much less memory to remember 4 verbs and maybe 6 nouns in Vim to perform navigation, than learning 4x6=24 shortcuts > Thing is, you don't remember "fewer things" with Emacs/Vim. You end up remembering about the same, or greater number of things on top of significantly worse functionality. You don't understand vim yet you confidently state that it requires remembering more things. vim is like a langu…

> If you know that 'd' ... and that 'w'

> When you later learn that '$'

> when you learn that y

As if that doesn't require you to remember things. In the end I always, without fail, see people consistently struggle with doing things in Vim that take a single shortcut (or an action lookup) in an IDE. Even people who've been working in Vim for years.

Because it's a nice little story about "oh, it's so easy to yank a word" because it's always easy to come up with the most trivial examples.

And this narrative about verbs and nouns falls apart even for trivial examples. E.g. the simple act of going to end of line, end of file, beginning of file are three different shortcuts that have little to no relation to each other. No worries, you just have to memorize them. Don't forget variations on shortcuts like yy and Y. And many other idiosyncrasies that don't fall neatly into the verb-noun narrative.

> Vim isn't discoverable, you cannot learn to use it without reading

Funny how the very same people who say this are hell bent on never learning IDEs.

> You can get LSP in vim/emacs

Yes, you can. There's a reason LSP never came out of emacs/vim world.

Re: Leaving Neovim for Zed

#288

Post by cassepipe »

wadim wrote: post #207
cassepipe wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also settled on Lunarvim (ans stopped worrying) I kinda had the same journey as the author except that I clinged to the terminal workflow he had leave behind. Choosing a Neovim distro was the solution for me.

> I also settled on Lunarvim (ans stopped worrying) Then I have some sad news for you. :( https://github.com/LunarVim/LunarVim/discussions/4518#discus...

That's a bummer. Time to jump ships.

I guess concentration of efforts in this espace is a good idea.

Re: Leaving Neovim for Zed

#289

Post by rd07 »

Talking about text/code editor journey, currently I am using Pragtical, a fork of Lite XL. I have always wanted a GUI editor that is lightweight but easy enough to extend with plugin. And Pragtical and Lite XL almost checks all the box for me. There is still some missing features like code folding that has not been implemented, but it is not a killer feature for me. I actually quite enjoy fiddling with it and I have been writing several plugins for Lite XL and Pragtical even though I have no experience on Lua before. Lite XL's Matrix rooms (which is bridged with their Discord) is quite active and their member usually responds to any question asked.

Re: Leaving Neovim for Zed

#290

Post by arunix »

owenpalmer wrote: post #210
meitham wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t touch type and I’m fully with you on speed doesn’t increase performance, but I have recently started writing c# after two decades of python and man the number of lines that you have to write before you get to the meat of the logic! So I think that 10 lines of code are only to expressive languages not globally

Learning to touch type is hard, but worth it. Once you learn, you'll realize the difference it makes.

It need not be hard. I learnt over the Christmas holidays using Kaz (https://kaz-type.com/)
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